http://news.com.com/2102-1025_3-5698499.html?tag=st.util.print 09/05/2005 14:52 http://www.news.com/ A virtual world with peer-to-peer style By John Borland http://news.com.com/A+virtual+world+with+peer-to-peer+style/2100-1025_3-5698499.html Story last modified Mon May 09 04:00:00 PDT 2005 For a virtual world, it starts out very bare: Just an empty blue space, with a picture of a cat in a "Star Trek" costume at its center. But that confused-looking cat is an avatar--a digital representation of a real person (in this case a reporter)--and the empty blue space is an early "node" in Solipsis , an experiment with building a peer-to-peer virtual world, released late last month by researchers at France Telecom. Still in the very early stages of development, the Solipsis project aims to draw together the technological lessons of "massively multiplayer" games like Sony's "EverQuest" and file-swapping networks like Kazaa or eDonkey. Developers are hoping to construct a sprawling virtual world that runs on its inhabitants' own linked computers, rather than relying on powerful central servers like those that run Web sites or EverQuest's fantasy adventures. News.context What's new: Massively multiplayer games are moving toward adopting a peer-to-peer model. Bottom line: Developers are hoping to create grassroots "metaverses" that exceed the ambitions of "EverQuest" or "Star Wars Galaxies." More stories on this topic What's the advantage in that? It sets Internet dwellers free--both in the "free beer" and "free speech" senses, according to the developers. "In a closed system, the world is bounded by the imagination of the people working in the company that owns the world," said Joaquin Keller, one of the developers at France Telecom, the French telecommunications giant, working on the project. "If your system is open, a lot of ideas will flourish. It's like the difference between one Web site and the whole Web." Solipsis and similar peer-to-peer and open-source projects are aiming at nothing less than a radical transformation of the way that games are developed, and even of the way people communicate and manipulate information online. Inspired by science fiction novels like Neal Stephenson's "Snow Crash," which told of a sophisticated online virtual world called the "Metaverse ," these developers want to make digital environments as complicated and rich as the real world. People might meet in a digital representation of their own rooms, or of the Taj Mahal, rather than simply exchanging e-mails, for example.
By John Borlandhttp://news.com.com/A+virtual+world+with+peer-to-peer+style/2100-1025_3-5698499.html
Story last modified Mon May 09 04:00:00 PDT 2005
For a virtual world, it starts out very bare: Just an empty blue space, with a picture of a cat in a "Star Trek" costume at its center.
But that confused-looking cat is an avatar--a digital representation of a real person (in this case a reporter)--and the empty blue space is an early "node" in Solipsis, an experiment with building a peer-to-peervirtual world, released late last month by researchers at France Telecom.
Still in the very early stages of development, the Solipsis project aims to draw together the technological lessons of "massively multiplayer" games like Sony's "EverQuest" and file-swapping networks like Kazaa or eDonkey. Developers are hoping to construct a sprawling virtual world that runs on its inhabitants' own linkedcomputers, rather than relying on powerful central servers like those that run Web sites or EverQuest's fantasy adventures.
News.context
What's new:Massively multiplayer games are moving toward adopting a peer-to-peer model.
Bottom line:Developers are hoping to create grassroots "metaverses" that exceed the ambitions of "EverQuest" or "Star Wars Galaxies."
More stories on this topic
What's the advantage in that? It sets Internet dwellers free--both in the "free beer" and "free speech" senses,according to the developers.
"In a closed system, the world is bounded by the imagination of the people working in the company that ownsthe world," said Joaquin Keller, one of the developers at France Telecom, the French telecommunications giant, working on the project. "If your system is open, a lot of ideas will flourish. It's like the difference between one Web site and the whole Web."
Solipsis and similar peer-to-peer and open-source projects are aiming at nothing less than a radical transformation of the way that games are developed, and even of the way people communicate and manipulate information online.
Inspired by science fiction novels like Neal Stephenson's "Snow Crash," which told of a sophisticated online virtual world called the "Metaverse," these developers want to make digital environments as complicated andrich as the real world. People might meet in a digital representation of their own rooms, or of the Taj Mahal, rather than simply exchanging e-mails, for example.
Increasingly, this vision is being blended with the grassroots peer-to-peer and open-source movements, which aims at distributing computing power and creativity as widely, and as close to the individual user, as possible.
Most big online virtual worlds, such as "EverQuest" or "Star Wars Galaxies," are hosted on big central servers. That's partly because the computing requirements of keeping track of a world's consistency--where people are, which dragons have been killed, which houses have burned down--are high.
Keller and a growing number of developers have something else in mind. In their vision, each inhabitant's computer is responsible only for keeping track of what's in its own little corner of the world. In that model, visiting someone else online might mean a literal visit to their space, which has its own look, rules and feel.
That anarchic model, without a central authority or even purpose, could be even more overwhelmingly immersive than today's "addictive" online games, some predict.
"If you had a bunch of P2P worlds, it occurs to me that you might just lose people," said Edward Castronova, an Indiana University professor whose upcoming book "Synthetic Worlds" examines the issues around online games. "People won't show up on scorecards in a game, won't be in our economy anymore, we won't know where they are. They might be producing valuable things, and having a rich and productive social and economic life, but all in the virtual worlds."
Not exactly the "Matrix," yetTo be sure, a peer-to-peer virtual world with the three-dimensional visuals and rich environment demandedby today's game players is far away.
Graphics production alone makes the project a difficult one. Big worlds such as "EverQuest" can cost tens of millions of dollars to produce, with much of that money going to art and design.
Solipsis is utterly rudimentary in this regard. Two-dimensional images, each representing a person or a "bot,"float inside the blue space of each individual computer's node. A separate chat room allows visitors to a nodeto interact. Graphics production and features like voice chat in future versions are being called for by developers.
A few other projects, such as the Open Source Metaverse Project, are a little further along. That effort aims to let developers create their own 3D worlds, which can be hyperlinked together to provide bridges for server-hopping visitors. That project is drawing on modeling technology from the developers of the "Quake" video game.
'Second Life'However, even some larger commercial projects are moving in the grassroots direction, and they could showa path to the future.
Take "Second Life," the virtual world created by Linden Labs. Rather than offer a traditional game environment like "EverQuest," it provides a growing world in which inhabitants can build their own homes, create their own "in-game" games, run businesses or do pretty much anything else that strikes their fancy.
"Second Life" has 28,000 people online today, and some inhabitants are already making more than $100,000a year in real-world money by selling digital wares constructed inside the world or running full-fledged role-playing games.
"Second Life" is built on a distributed model, in which numerous servers are connected together, each one
representing about 16 acres of land in the digital world. Those patches of digital space are seamlessly connected together to create the world as experienced by visitors.
Today, all of those servers are run by Linden Labs, but the world was built to ultimately support a peer-to-peer model, where players might add their own 16-acre plot into the world from their own computer, said Linden Labs' chief executive officer, Philip Rosedale. For security reasons--including the fact that a real currency is traded inside the world--the company hasn't taken that step yet, however.
"Interesting virtual worlds are ultimately going to be so huge that they couldn't possibly take the centralized approach," Rosedale said. "But pragmatically, we run all the servers today, since it gives you reliability."
Some analysts say it's exactly that fear of giving way to the total anarchy of user-created content that may keep commercial ventures from going all the way to peer to peer. User-created environments will naturally be rough around the edges, andthey might infringe on copyrights here and there and even be dangerous, after all.
But they'll never fail to be interesting, backers say. And that's the point.
"P2P virtual worlds are not for the faint of heart," said Crosbie Fitch, a developer who has written on the subject for several years. "But where would you rather play? In an expensive Utopia indistinguishable from an online creche? Or a collection of interactive universes that make the Web look like a quaint old tool, like Gopher does to Web surfers today? "
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Gamers to rule their own virtual worlds18:34 12 May 2005NewScientist.com news serviceWill Knight
Multiplayer online games could be made more robust and immersive by using peer-to-peer (P2P) networking to let players store part of a virtual universe on their own computer.
Researchers say blending P2P networking - best known for letting people find and share music and video files online - with online gaming could make virtual worlds more stable and, eventually, more expandable.
Massive multiplayer online role-playing games, or MMORPGs, provide users with a complex virtual world in which to interact and act out adventures with others. Popular titles in the genre include World of Warcraft, Everquest II and Final Fantasy XI.
But existing games require users to connect to a centralised server owned and maintained by the company behind the game. Although this makes a game easier to control and maintain, it also providesa single point of failure and can complicate expanding it for large numbers of player.
Now researchers at France Telecom have built a simple role-playing game that works without the need for any centralised server. The project, called Solipsis, lets users interact within a virtual space hosted collectively on their own computers.
Infinitely scalable
"The idea is to have an infinitely scalable world," says Joaquin Keller, who developed Solipsis at France Telecom's research laboratory in Issy-Les-Moulineaux, south west of Paris. "The current approach has limitations."
A user expands the scale of Solipsis just by installing the software. The project currently provides only a 2D interface for user interaction, but Keller says more complex 3D graphical features are under development.
Keller adds that designing the P2P virtual world has been tricky because of the need to avoid the network becoming flooded with communications as the number of users increases. The researchers dealt with this issue by developing a system that only exchanges messages locally rather than broadcasting them.
Other P2P-powered games are also under development and some observers say they will enable the creation of more engrossing and exciting virtual worlds.
Common governance
The Open Source Metaverse Project, for example, lets users build visually complex 3D landscapes thatcan be linked to one another online. Some existing virtual worlds may also switch to a P2P network scheme eventually. Second Life, created by Linden Lab of California, US, was built with a P2P system in mind, although currently it runs on several large servers.
Julian Dibbell, who co-edits the online gaming weblog Terra Nova, says P2P networking could go beyond just solving technical issues to generate more interesting forms of virtual interaction. "At the moment, the games companies are in control, and they tend to be autocratic," he told New Scientist."When you go peer-to-peer you have the prospect of common or complex governance."
But Dibbells adds that, without central control, it could be a challenge to make sure such games continue to appeal to users. "How do you make things seem interesting for everyone if individuals can
Unauthorised copying of digital artefacts may be a particular problem, he says, although Second Life provides a potential solution, letting users add copy controls to items they create within the game. These items can then be exchanged or sold to other users, and the currency used in Second Life can be exchanged for real world cash.
Related ArticlesAttack on game raises prospect of online extortionhttp://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn729321 April 2005Virtual island sells for $26,500 in cyber assetshttp://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn680715 December 2004Sales in virtual goods top $100 millionhttp://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn660129 October 2004
WeblinksSolipsishttp://solipsis.netofpeers.net/wiki/HomePage/OpenSource Metaverse Projecthttp://metaverse.sourceforge.net/Research & Development, France Telecomhttp://www.francetelecom.com/fr/groupe/rd/Second Lifehttp://secondlife.com/Terra Novahttp://terranova.blogs.com/
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Solipsis - a Decentralized Open-Source MMORPG
Posted by Zonk on MondayMay 09, @11:16PMfrom the reality's-building-blocks dept.Anonymous Reader writes "Calling it an MMORPG is a bit of a misnomer because at this point there aren't any players, much less hit points, monsters, or flaming swords. Solipsis is an open-source project that aims to create a decentralized multi-user virtual world. It's still very much in its infancy, and as such the visuals are a bit lacking, but the aim is to create an endlessly scalable user-contributed world and it seems it's a nice platform to play with."
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well, in theory. (Score:1) by Neitokun (882224) <[email protected]> on Monday May 09, @11:21PM(#12481671) (http://nmalynn.sheezyart.com/)
but you just know that this place is going to end up with n00bs making whorehousesand warez trading places. but, it's an interesting idea... i hope they can keep the stupid idiot factor down....[ Reply to This ]
Re:well, in theory. (Score:3, Funny) by ArsonSmith (13997) on Monday May 09, @11:47PM (#12482014) (Last Journal: Wednesday January 15, @09:17AM)
Services Broadband PriceGrabber Product Guide Special Offers Jobs
> n00bs making whorehouses and warez trading
If we're lucky!
--Make fun if you want but it's for a good cause: Stormtrooper MS [ti[ Reply to This | Parent ]
Glorified Decentralized Chat (Score:2, Insightful) by bhive01 (832162) * on Monday May 09, @11:22PM (#12481689)This program is no more than a glorified decentralized chat proggy. Anyboout where to find people yet? The Hive[ Reply to This ]
Re:Glorified Decentralized Chat (Score:3, Interesting) by ZephyrXero (750822) <zephyrxero@@@yahoo...com> on Tu10, @12:59AM (#12482823) (http://penguin.agrid.usm.edu/~deisenhardt | Last Journal: Monday April 25Yeah, kind of reminds me of "The Palace" from back in the day....I for something a little more akin to current MMORPGs....perhaps 3d--Zephyr Radio - Rock, Electronic & More [usm.edu][ Reply to This | Parent ]
most MMOs (Score:3, Insightful) by HTL2001 (836298) on Monday May 09, @11:37PM (#12481857)most MMOs forbid client modification... this makes it easy!
and since its decentralized, server modification also. unless they store useron a central server, cheating is gonna be BAD.[ Reply to This ]
Re:most MMOs (Score:1) by Jamu (852752) on Monday May 09, @11:50PM (#12482055If it's peer to peer then your internet connection will go down whena-hole takes a dislike to you.[ Reply to This | Parent ]
Re:most MMOs (Score:4, Interesting) by Elwood P Dowd (16933) <[email protected]> on Tues10, @01:45AM (#12483216) (http://homepage.mac.com/dojothemouse | Last Journal: Monday May 09, @
unless they store user data securly on a central server, cheating is gonna be BAD.
No, cheating is going to be redefined. While they're a billion miles from Metaverse-like, Neal Stephenson already worked this out pretty well. While you're walking along the street, the computers that run the street place limits on the appearance of your avatar. The sunbeams shooting out of your hairdo do not extend across everything else on the street.
When you get into a fight on one server (in a bar, for example :), they can track your stats. If several servers agree that they trust each other, then they could share stats. Everyone knows there's no cheating in the Black Sun.
If you're worried that the <Lord Pants; Level 60> floating above your head won't mean anything because anyone will be able to do that... then yeah, you're exactly right. Some servers will follow conventions and some won't and that's fine. Hang out in the areas where you like the rules.--
There are no trails. There are no trees out here.[ Reply to This | Parent ]
Re:most MMOs (Score:1) by tprime (673835) on Tuesday May 10, @02:51PM (#12487345)This will make the MMO MORE like real life than others, if what youdescribe is true. There are certain areas of each city that you do notventure into. Be it for violence, drugs, etc. this creates the first trueMMORPG ghetto.[ Reply to This | Parent ]
Croquet (Score:5, Informative) by Elwood P Dowd (16933) <[email protected]> on Monday May 09,@11:44PM (#12481963) (http://homepage.mac.com/dojothemouse | Last Journal: Monday May 09, @11:31PM)
Also vaguely interesting and along similar lines is Alan Kay's Croquet[opencroquet.org] project.
It's not particularly mind blowing, but it has potential.--
There are no trails. There are no trees out here.[ Reply to This ]
Cool... Let's see where this leads to. (Score:4, Informative) by obi (118631) on Monday May 09, @11:47PM (#12482008)I'm quite interested in such a system. However, for a true decentralized system youneed to put trust metrics at the core of the system, because cheating would just be too easy otherwise.
With a client/server model, you can just say: "everyone trusts what the server says, what the server says goes". With a P2P model you have no such easy way out.
Anyway, I'll be very closely watching this - the only distributed system that comes close is opencroquet, but that's not really suitale for a real-time environment.
While they might not necessarily succeed, it'll be very interesting to see their experience and conclusions once their prototypes start being used.
[ Reply to This ]
Re:Cool... Let's see where this leads to. (Score:3, Interesting) by rvw14 (733613) on Tuesday May 10, @12:32AM (#12482513)Here is an interesting article on cheating in MMORPGs.
http://www.arena.net/news/articles/mikearticle0408 02.html [arena.net][ Reply to This | Parent ]
is hacking the game part of the game? (Score:1, Offtopic) by evilmousse (798341) on Monday May 09, @11:54PM (#12482102) (http://www.referential-integrity.com/evilmousse/ | Last Journal: Saturday February 12, @10:40PM)
it should be. they should call the game "hackers vs. GMs". oodles of fun! i'm serious. it would be awesome!--why would god want to explain super-advanced physics to ancient camel-fuckers anyway, it'd be pointless.[ Reply to This ]
Neverwinter Nights (Score:1) by PhiznTRG (261350) on Tuesday May 10, @12:00AM (#12482176)
Isn't this something that could have been implemented with NWN and the portals thatallow connections between different worlds?
As others have mentioned, the cheating and stupidity will be the biggest hurdles to overcome.
[ Reply to This ]
As an oldtimer, let me say... (Score:4, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 10, @12:00AM (#12482183)*Waves cane*
We called them MUDs in our day! And people played with the concept ofdecentralizing them back then as well. Nothing ever came of it, AFAIK. As otherposters have said, trust is a huge issue. There are other problems with latency,bandwidth, synchronization, etc.
[ Reply to This ]
Hacks (Score:5, Interesting) by CrazyJim1 (809850) on Tuesday May 10, @12:06AM (#12482255) (Last Journal: Friday November 19, @01:02AM)
When you do that client side stuff, you need to put checks on hackers. I won't get intomuch detail because maybe .01% of people who read this care, but you can pull off anti-hack tricks. Its important not to allow players to know the anti-hack tricks becausethey'd work around them. But if you make people pay for the game, and ban them, theoverhead of loss will prevent most hackers.
For example: Have every client connect to the main server to track stats. If a stat gets modified faster than it could be changed in game, then an alarm goes off.
If you set up tons of trip wires like this, and institute a player based police system such as Halo 2 has, then you're set. If you don't protect a client side game against hacks,then if it gets popular, it will be hacked into the ground.--God spoke to me. [geocities.com][ Reply to This ]
Re:Hacks (Score:3, Interesting) by cbr2702 (750255) on Tuesday May 10, @04:26AM (#12484313) (http://sccs.swarthmore.edu/~cbr)
Or you can make a fully decentralized system and pay no heed to cheating. Youdon't need to have a global idea of stats to have a good game. Each player canrun a server component. Different servers correspond to different parts of theworld, with a registration/transfer system. Sort of like the web with hyperlinks.Let players decide which servers they like. A server can keep stats, protectnames, restrict avatars, or not. Servers with silly rules won't get used. Let econdo the work for you.--
This post written under Gentoo-linux with an SCO IP license.[ Reply to This | Parent ]
Re:Hacks (Score:2, Informative) by Jahf (21968) on Tuesday May 10, @06:23AM (#12485146) (Last Journal: Thursday August 05, @10:55PM)
For example: Have every client connect to the main server to track stats. If a stat gets modified faster than it could be changed in game, then an alarm goes off.
Under that assumption you have to at least allow 20 hours if not 24 hours of change. Sorry, but given the rate of casual players this would still screw them. You could still advance your character (characters with multiple computers or program instances) as if you were playing all day every day. Not nearly as fast as an insta-cheat, but still far more than a regular "real" player can keep up with.
There is almost no way that a true P2P game would be able to prevent hacking, even with a background checking server (which wouldn't be true P2P anyway). We've already seen a few cases of P2P hashes being hacked without changing their sums recently.
A police system is going to be far more effective than the alternative, but then you have to deal with the question of "10 people flagged this account as cheating but 20 people flagged him as being ok". Its less of an issue in a multiplayer game like Halo 2 (it isn't "massive" and you don't care nearly as much if player A is cheating because he only affects players B through Z, not players B through ZZZZZZ).
There is another plausible idea ... have the P2P network randomly change various binaries used in the game and force all clients to update to the new binaries to continue playing. The clients would have to download the binary
-and- propogate it and each client would perform checks back to the server (perhaps even sharing it back to the server in random intervals) so that the server can confirm that not only is the hash the same, but the bits are not different. If the server finds altered binaries, it can force a traceback through the clients that that slice was shared from until it finds the "right" slice. The slice -after- that is the one causing the problems. Eventually the entire client would be refreshed and any impurities wiped out.
It wouldn't prevent cheating 100% of the time, but it would remove 100% of the cheats -over- time.
And if it gets used by a software company, consider this prior art.
--It is more productive to voice thoughtful opinions (reply) than to judge (moderate) others.[ Reply to This | Parent ]
Re:Hacks (Score:0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 10, @06:36AM (#12485213)Do you even know what prior art is fucktard?[ Reply to This | Parent ]
Re:Hacks (Score:0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 10, @09:57AM (#12486101)Oh yes, because you're the first one to ever think of this. Nice try tho.[ Reply to This | Parent ]
Hmm. (Score:1) by say__10 (768448) on Tuesday May 10, @12:36AM (#12482557) (http://www.say-10.net/)
I read this and thought "metaverse" anyone else think that too??--Home of the midwest loser - www.say-10.net [say-10.net][ Reply to This ]
Re:Hmm. (Score:1) by GrassMunk (677765) on Tuesday May 10, @02:48AM (#12483591)To be honest i would love the idea of a metaverse. But its never going tohappen. Ever. Because its a useless tech. Unless we can get full immersion like snow crash people wont use it. I've thought how awesome a metaverse would be, hell snowcrash is my all time favorite novel but 3d chat just wont cut it.[ Reply to This | Parent ]
Trouble. (Score:1) by Seumas (6865) on Tuesday May 10, @12:47AM (#12482683)Sounds like it's welcoming a lot of trouble from those who are ill-prepared to properlycontribute (sort of like people who don't know better and set their P2P clients to be full hubs) and people who want to intentionally introduce problems or cracks into the system.
Hopefully people would still have to pay to play. I think that subscriptions to MMORPGs set an entry level to prevent a lot of troublemakers from joining up and disrupting everything.[ Reply to This ]
Otherland (Score:1) by MistabewM (17044) on Tuesday May 10, @12:52AM (#12482744)I think Tad Williams may be intrested in this. And if you are reading this Tad, tryfitting a story into less then 700 pages sometime. I may stay intrested that way.--"A learning experience is one of those things that says, 'You know that thing you justdid? Don't do that.'" - DNA[ Reply to This ]
Re:Otherland (Score:2) by geminidomino (614729) * on Tuesday May 10, @05:21AM (#12484677) (http://www.mangaschool.com/ | Last Journal: Monday November 15, @06:06PM)Oh hell no. I don't want to lose content because you have ADD.--Help! We're being attacked by the Culture of Life! Send Zombies![ Reply to This | Parent ]
Re:Otherland (Score:2) by Dr. GeneMachine (720233) on Tuesday May 10, @07:53AM(#12485595)I second that.Tad? Are you hearing this? Keep it up, dude! Give us more!--This comment does not exist.[ Reply to This | Parent ]
Re:Otherland (Score:1) by Blacken00100 (864342) on Tuesday May 10, @04:37PM(#12488352)Ugh, no. "Content" is fine; page after page of mind-numbingdescription isn't "content."[ Reply to This | Parent ]
Nice... but unfortunately. (Score:3, Insightful) by AzraelKans (697974) on Tuesday May 10, @12:54AM (#12482763)Unfortunately this is nothing "new" a good bunch of indie developers have tried tokeep down the costs of creating a indie mmorpg by not having a central server (include myself to that list), and keeping it peer to peer instead.
However so far is a lot more of theory (and some mixed bag tech demos) than actual results. Lets face it, if a super MMORPG (like WOW) is having trouble to keep a lag free (more or less) environment by using centralized state of the art equipment and systems with lots of bandwidth to spare. What chances does a run of the mill client in ahome PC have? (which is usually connected to a bandwidth sucker proxy which is connected to a bunch of dumb users with a lot of spyware installed) a: none. The lag would be completely unbareable is hardly noticeable for web surfing but for a system sending an update of several dozens of users each 2-3 seconds is a killer.
In the future we are going to see more systems like "guild wars" in which areas are instantiated for a limited number of users (including user based servers I think) instead of one server farm trying to handle all the users all the time. Now thats an idea that actually works! (although it takes the "massive" mostly out of the equation.) and it should be interesting for small developers. --
Go ahead MOD my day![ Reply to This ]
Re:Nice... but unfortunately. (OT) (Score:1) by orgelspieler (865795) on Tuesday May 10, @02:02AM (#12483334)bandwidth sucker proxy
Is that like The Hudsucker Proxy [imdb.com]?
[ Reply to This | Parent ]
Re:Nice... but unfortunately. (Score:2) by S3D (745318) on Tuesday May 10, @09:12AM (#12485944)The lag would be completely unbareable is hardly noticeable for web surfing but for a system sending an update of several dozens of users each 2-3 seconds is a killer. I don't think the real lag would be worse then with normal server based MMORPG. The thing is, to play a game you have to interact not only with server, but with other client. Whatever lag other client have will affect you too while you are interacting with it in the normal MMORPG. In the central server
case clients connect through the server. In the distributed case they connect directly. The latter case should be faster. Of cause enviroment synchronizationwill be more difficalt.[ Reply to This | Parent ]
It's been done before... (Score:2) by SirBruce (679714) on Tuesday May 10, @12:55AM (#12482769) (http://www.mmogchart.com/)
Back in the MUD days, Marcus J. Ranum created UnterMud, which allowed people toconnect their own personal muds and transfer objects between them. Nothing reallybecame of it, though; although players want user extensibility, they also need a structured ruleset within which they can play, which they can rely on to provide a consistent framework for their play. They don't want the risk of radical rules changingwhenever they move from one server to another.
Bruce
[ Reply to This ]
Missing the point (Score:3, Interesting) by istewart (463887) on Tuesday May 10, @01:30AM (#12483099)I think the guy who said that it's basically a glorified decentralized chat system hit itright on the head. I read this and thought "Metaverse," and their webpage/wiki says as much. I don't think it's meant to be any sort of a coherent game, although doubtless someone will use it as such.
I think world boundaries and "streets" and other such metaphors for the physical world can be set up by using connection forwarding through other servers. For instance, if your Solipsis server is hosting a structure that's down the "street" from your buddy's server, then you would only accept incoming connections from your buddy's server. You would also block connection spoofing and maintain the illusion by checking back with his server to ask, "is XXX.XXX.XXX.XXX connected to you, and is it headed my way (trying to connect to me)?" Of course, lag issues would have to be worked out, but I certainly think it's something to work from.
I think goofy hacks will run wild, just like in Snow Crash, but server security can be set up to maintain a coherent world and keep out people you don't want around.[ Reply to This ]
Re:Missing the point (Score:2) by Suppafly (179830) <suppafly@livejoF ... m minus language> on TuesdayMay 10, @01:56AM (#12483302) (http://suppafly.livejournal.com/)
i wonder if something like that could be accomplished with pirate WOWservers
--Free Music and Witty Commentary [pityfive.com][ Reply to This | Parent ]
Better in theory than in practice (Score:3, Interesting) by petrus4 (213815) on Tuesday May 10, @01:41AM (#12483192) (http://aqpeag.blogspot.com/ | Last Journal: Tuesday April 05, @05:26PM)
I had a look at this a week or so back, since there was a link to it on Terra [blogs.com] Nova [blogs.com].I really wasn't particularly impressed, to be honest, although I'm willing to give it the benefit of the doubt and say that it is still very much early days as far as the project is concerned.
There would also be a couple of major obstacles to this in the real world, sadly.
a) With regards to content in particular, Sturgeon's Law [jargon.net] would probably apply with a brutal vengeance.
b) With client-side character files and (worse yet) individual control of bandwidth from peers, you'd see 14 year old Neo wannabes swarming out of the woodwork everywhere, with things like the recent Blizzard speed hack, item duping, and so forth.
c) Although most people might, not everybody has broadband yet, sadly...and for this, everyone would need to. (I'm still on a 56k modem myself)
At least in terms of its level of progress, Croquet [opencroquet.org] is far more interesting. I downloaded it and had a mess around with it...and although there are some issues which could be majorly improved, (texture size needs to be made uniform, for one thing) it's coming along well. It will be a while I think before a sufficient portion of the online population will have the processing capacity or bandwidth for a networked version of Croquet to be large-scale viable...but when we get to that point it could be very interesting. It essentially looks like an ancestor of the sort of completely 3D, networked virtual environment that Gibson and others wrote about.--Dedicated to giving unfunny /. "humour" the Troll/Overrated/Redundant mod points it deserves.[ Reply to This ]
What this... (Score:2) by creimer (824291) on Tuesday May 10, @04:44AM (#12484441) (http://www.creimer.ws/)
Sounds like a MUD to me. Or did I miss something?--You should date anything with a pulse, bad judgement and no restraining orders against you. - Dogbert[ Reply to This ]
Re:What this... (Score:0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 10, @05:25AM (#12484712)You're completely wrong my friend. MUDs are not frequented by stars likeBritney Spears, J-lo and Aguilera.[ Reply to This | Parent ]
Re:What this... (Score:2) by creimer (824291) on Tuesday May 10, @05:42AM (#12484841) (http://www.creimer.ws/)MUDs are not frequented by stars like Britney Spears, J-lo and Aguilera.
So I would find Michael Jackson in MUD instead? That would explain a lot.--You should date anything with a pulse, bad judgement and no restraining orders against you. - Dogbert[ Reply to This | Parent ]
Sigh. (Score:1) by But Who's Counting (703446) on Tuesday May 10, @04:18PM (#12488163)Internet drinking game: take one drink whenever someone proclaims that they want tomake a multi-user system resembling Neal Stephenson's Metaverse. The last playerwho hasn't died of alcohol poisoning by the end of the week wins.[ Reply to This ]
Search Barbie says, Take quaaludes in gin and go to a disco right away! But Kensays, WOO-WOO!! No credit at "Mr. Liquor"!!
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Solipsis: Decentralized open-source MMORPGPosted May 6, 2005, 3:49 PM ET by Jordan Running
Calling it an MMORPG is a bit of a misnomer becauseat this point there aren’t any players, much less hitpoints, monsters, or flaming swords. Solipsis is anopen-source project that aims to create a decentralizedmulti-user virtual world. It’s still very much in itsinfancy, and as such the visuals are a bit lacking, butthe aim is to create an endlessly scalable
user-contributed world.
Thanks, Joaquin.
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The Matrix Community Message Board » Forums » Déjà Vu »Snowcrash Fans - getting closer
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Author Thread: Snowcrash Fans - getting closer
Kira Scurro
A Free Mind Member # 59
posted 09-05-2005 15:38
this has absolutely nothing to do with mxo (though the matrix is used in the article), but i thought gamers would be more interested in this than anyone else, so i'm putting it here.
quote:
A virtual world with peer to peer style Published: May 9, 2005, 4:00 AM PDT
For a virtual world, it starts out very bare: Just an empty blue space, with a picture of a cat in a "Star Trek" costume at its center.
But that confused-looking cat is an avatar--a digital representation of a real person (in this case a reporter)--and the empty blue space is an early "node" in Solipsis, an experiment with building a peer-to-peer virtual world, released late last month by researchers at France Telecom.
Still in the very early stages of development, the Solipsis project aims to draw together the technological lessons of "massively multiplayer" games like Sony's "EverQuest" and file-swapping networks like Kazaa or eDonkey. Developers are hoping to construct a sprawling virtual world that runs on its inhabitants' own linked computers, rather than relying on powerful central servers like those that run Web sites or EverQuest's fantasy adventures.
What's the advantage in that? It sets Internet dwellers free--both in the "free beer" and "free speech" senses,
"In a closed system, the world is bounded by the imagination of the people working in the company that owns the world," said Joaquin Keller, one of the developers at France Telecom, the French telecommunications giant, working on the project. "If your system is open, a lot of ideas will flourish. It's like the difference between one Web site and the whole Web."
Solipsis and similar peer-to-peer and open-source projects are aiming at nothing less than a radical transformation of the way that games are developed, and even of the way people communicate and manipulate information online.
Inspired by science fiction novels like Neal Stephenson's "Snow Crash," which told of a sophisticated online virtual world called the "Metaverse", these developers want to make digital environments as complicated and rich as the real world. People might meet in a digital representation of their own rooms, or of the Taj Mahal, rather than simply exchanging e-mails, for example.
Increasingly, this vision is being blended with the grassroots peer-to-peer and open-source movements, which aims at distributing computing power and creativity as widely, and as close to the individual user, as possible.
Most big online virtual worlds, such as "EverQuest" or "Star Wars Galaxies," are hosted on big central servers. That's partly because the computing requirements of keeping track of a world's consistency--where people are, which dragons have been killed, which houses have burned down--are high.
Keller and a growing number of developers have something else in mind. In their vision, each inhabitant's computer is responsible only for keeping track of what's in its own little corner of the world. In that model, visiting someone else online might mean a literal visit to their space, which has its own look, rules and feel.
That anarchic model, without a central authority or even purpose, could be even more overwhelmingly immersive than today's "addictive" online games, some predict.
"If you had a bunch of P2P worlds, it occurs to me that you might just lose people," said Edward Castronova, an
Indiana University professor whose upcoming book "Synthetic Worlds" examines the issues around online games. "People won't show up on scorecards in a game, won't be in our economy anymore, we won't know where they are. They might be producing valuable things, and having a rich and productive social and economic life, but all in the virtual worlds."
Not exactly the "Matrix," yetTo be sure, a peer-to-peer virtual world with the three-dimensional visuals and rich environment demanded by today's game players is far away.
Graphics production alone makes the project a difficult one. Big worlds such as "EverQuest" can cost tens of millions of dollars to produce, with much of that money going to art and design.
Solipsis is utterly rudimentary in this regard. Two-dimensional images, each representing a person or a "bot," float inside the blue space of
Continued...
check out that open source metaverse link on the "continued" page, too. looks pretty exciting.
--------------------~BELIEVE~
From: la , ca | Registered: Sep 2001 | IP: Logged |
Igpajo
Operator Member # 11
posted 09-05-2005 16:08
That's interesting as hell, but I wonder how vulnerable the user's PC's that are participating and sharing computing power to sustain the system would be to malicious attacks. I don't know much aboutthat kind of thing but it seems like opening your computer's processing power up to support a system being used by thousands of other people would have some security risks. But then, if aprogramming-illeterate like me can think of it, I'm sure the creators of the system have to.
--------------------If you're not Outraged, you're not paying attention!
Anonymous Reader writes "Calling it an MMORPG is a bit of a misnomer because at this point there aren't any players, much less hit points, monsters, or flaming swords. Solipsis is an open-source project that aims to create a decentralized multi-user virtual world. It's still
very much in its infancy, and as such the visuals are a bit lacking, but the aim is to create an endlessly scalable user-contributed world and it seems it's a nice platform to play with." Read More...
Yesterday, 06:17:04 PM #2
TrickyPhillipsDancin' MachineRespected Legend
I think open source projects are wonderful. They really allow things to get done easier, if you've got the right group of people together, on the development team. I'm going to be keeping my eye on this project for a while. It may just go downhill, but I'm looking forward to seeing what happens with it.__________________
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Emergence of Peer-to-Peer Virtual Worlds
This article on news.com summarizes the current state of peer-to-peer virtual worlds. Unlike managed virtual worlds such as Everquest or The Sims, which rely on centralized servers to manage the consistency of the virtual environment, peer-to-peer systems are based on ad hoc connections and provide its users with freedom from the predefined policies of traditional MMORPGs. The article focuses on the recent release of Solipsis, a pure peer-to-peer system for a massively shared virtual world (see screenshots and this Slashdotdiscussion), and it also mentions Croquet and the Open Source Metaverse Project.
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Solipsis: Decentralized open-source MMORPG
Calling it an MMORPG is a bit of amisnomer because at this point therearen’t any players, much less hit points, monsters,or flaming swords. Solipsis is an open-sourceproject that aims to create a decentralizedmulti-user virtual world. It’s still very much in itsinfancy, and as such the visuals are a bit lacking,but the aim is to create an endlessly scalableuser-contributed world.
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Solipsis: il P2P incontra il MMORPG In sviluppo un nuovo sistema peer-to-peer che darà la possibilà di sviluppare una rete logica socialemolto potente.Inserito da: VedoVa_NeRaData pubblicazione: 08-05-2005
"Sembra davvero interessante", è la risposta all'email ricevuta daJoaquin Kellr in Francia.
Gli appassionati di Social Software: incontrano persone e si fanno nuovi amici
I Pionieri dell'elettronica: ottengono della terra gratis e possono conquistare il nuovo mondo
Il programmatore Python: può aggiungere il suo plugin ed hack.
Si parla del rilascio di Solipsis 0.8, un MMORPG p2p ed un progetto di dimensioni davvero notevoli per la costruzione di un "massively shared virtual world" (mondo virtuale condiviso a livello globale) come Keller e i suoi colleghi sviluppatori dicono sul sito di Solipsis "Non ci sono server: tutto si basa sui computer degli utenti finali"
Un mondo peer-to-peer con l'introduzione in futuro anche di funzionalità di scambio file.
Al momento tuttavia Solipsis, open source e distribuito con Licenza GNU General Public License, è un mondo deserto, privo di ogni vita.Non ci sono città precostituite, non ci sono abitanti ne scenari.
Ma è destinato ad evolvere lentamente in una rete di peer che collaborano in tempo realeper popolarlo e svilupparlo. E a renderlo anche più intrigante "l'architettura di rete separachiaramente i diversi compiti, così sia gli hacker del p2p che gli appassionati di multimediapossono divertirsi" dice Keller.
Solipsis è scalabile e può essere esteso a "milioni, miliardi di utenti e di entità ed èprogettato per essere ampio come il Web"
Per adesso funziona su Windows e Linux. Ma la squadra di sviluppo ha pianificato di svilupparne anche una versione per MAC OS X nel prossimo futuro.
Ecco una breve intervista con Keller realizzata da p2pnet.net. In futuro inseriremo documenti più dettagliati sulla rete di Solipsis.
p2pnet Dove vivi in Francia?Keller A Parigi. Lavoro al centro di ricerca della France Telecom di Les Moulineaux
p2pnet Ha creato lei Solipsis?Keller Si. l'idea mi venne nel 1998. Ma il progetto è partito nel 2001 quando fu fondatodalla France Telecomp2pnet Perché avete scelto il nome Solipsis?Keller Viene dalla parola Solipsismo, una dottrina filosofica che sostiene che la realtà esistesolo nella mente di ognuno di noi. Alcuni trovano difficile immaginare un mondo senza Dio. Nel mondo virtuale di Solipsis, puoi avere solo una visione locale: nessuno può avere unavisione globale. Sarà, per esempio, impossibile sapere esattamente quanta gente è inSolipsis. Oggetti e persone sono la stessa cosa. Eseguono lo stesso codice. Sono peer-nodi in una rete logica che si diffonderà attraverso tutto Internet.
Questo è il sogno dietro il progetto Solipsis
Se in quel punto vedo tutti e tutti vedono me allora sono li
p2pnet Chi lavora con te?Keller A Settembre 2001 ho arruolato uno studente, Gwendal Simon, per farlo lavorare con me su Solipsis. Antoine Pitrou ha cominciato a lavorare su Solipsis a Novembre, ed Emmanuel Bréton in Marzo. Lavorano sul progetto anche Didier Gorges (monetizzazione) eDavid Dugoujon (codice).p2pnet Qual'è l'obiettivo di Solipsis?Keller L'idea principale è di abilitare un cyberspazio simile al WEB ma costruito con icontributi dei singoli utenti usando i loro computer.p2pnet A che punto siete?
Keller E' come se ci trovassimo nei primi anni 90 con il server web ed il browser mosaic, ma senza pagine web. Le differenze principali sono 1) In Solipsis "mosaic" ed il "server web" sono lo stesso programma (il nodo), così i lettori sono anche fornitori di contenuti ( laprossima versione implementerà il file sharing e 2) Quando navighi sul Web sei solo. InSolipsis incontri gli altri navigatori.
Non so se Solipsis sarà il sistema che funzionerà, ma sono sicuro che ci sarà in futuro unsistema come questo.
p2pnet Come ti è venuta l'idea?Keller Leggendo il romanzo di fantascienza Snow Crash di Neal Stephenson nel 1998. Mi ritrovai con il nucleo dell'algoritmo nel 2001. Nel 2002 avevamo il primo pezzo di codice funzionante (grazie soprattutto a Gwendal). Solipsis è diventato Opensource nel primo 2004ed ho presentato Solipsis al codecon2004.p2pnet Vedo che usate la licenza GNU. Cosa significa in termini del futuro sviluppo?Keller Speriamo che altri sviluppatori si uniscano a noip2pnet Può (o potrebbe) Solipsis essere usato in contesti diversi dal MMORPG?Keller Solipsis è votato all'interazione sociale. Il gioco non è l'applicazione primaria. Lamaggior parte della gente usa i MMORPG per incontrare altra gente. Fare punti non è loscopo principale. Le persone interagiranno come sugli attuali programmi di messaggistica istantanea ma con gente che prima era completamente sconosciuta. Solipsis è un luogo diincontro. La gente creerà gruppi secondo i propri interessi, così ci saranno posti in cuiparlare di sport, altri in cui parlare di musica o politica.p2pnet Quali sono i piani futuri?Keller Continueremo a lavorare su Solipsis. In qualche settimana aggiungeremo i "profili"alle entità del mondo virtuale. I profili sono una sorta di sito web personale con link ad altreentità. Daranno sostanza al mondo.Abbiamo in programma di creare collegamento DaWebaSolipsis e DaSolipsisalWeb - cioéclicchi su una pagina WeB e salti da qualche parte su Solipsis e viceversa.p2pnet Solipsis sarà sempre gratuito?Keller Proprio così. Abbiamo anche intenzione di costruirci un business su Solipsis e di darela possibilità ad altra gente di costruire il proprio.
Per ulteriori informazioni Solipsis HomePage
Traduzione libera a cura di VedoVa_NeRa per www.p2pforum.itOriginale inglese a cura di www.p2pnet.net
Questo articolo vi arriva grazie alle donazioni di asterix che contribuiscono a mantenere online p2pforum.it
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P2p meets MMORPGFonte wikipedia.org e p2pnet.net 28.04.2005
“Looks really interesting,” we replied in response to an email we’d
had from Joaquin Keller in France.
* Social software addict: meet people and make new friends
* Electronic pioneer: take your land for free and settle the new
world
* Python programmer: add your own communication plugins and
hacks
And it was interesting indeed because Keller was telling us about
the release of Solipsis-0.8, a p2p MMORPG with truly astounding
dimensions for a, “massively shared virtual world,” as Keller and his
co-developers say in their Solipsis site. “There is no server at all: it
only relies on end-users' machines.”
Solipsis=A peer-to-peer system for a massively multi-participant
virtual world.
Bye
posted by b0ni at 7:16 pm
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Solipsis, a French-developed peer-to-peer system for a massive virtual world
Posted by: David @ 14:13 Tagged and filed under: Cool Tools, Information Knowledgists, Collaborative Web, Searcher Magazine Threads, virtual worlds, P2P, wikis, libraries, archives, photographyView my tags at Technorati.com: virtual worlds, P2P, wikis, libraries, archives, photographyView The Ten Thousand Year Blog Tags and Topics Cosmos
Back in 1839 the French government purchased the rights to and granted a pension to Louis Jacques Mande Daguerre (1787-July 1851), the inventor of a photographic process he named the daguerreotype. France in turn donated the technology to the world and changed the course of history as this process became the first commercially successful photographic process. Only the world did not include England, where commercial photographers had to license the process if they wanted to legally use it. Fortunately, an English inventor, William Fox Talbot, had created a competing photographic process called the Talbotype or the calotype, a true negative-positive process, which led to a further evolution of photography. The daguerreotype and the calotype essentially became extinct (there are modern practioners today) when another process involving light-sensitive wet collodion was released in 1851, the year Daguerre died. Glass was used as the medium to which the collodion was poured onto, exposed in the camera, and then developed. Thus the term glass negatives.
I read this afternoon of a new French invention being led by the R&D Division of France Télécom and made available to the world. This invention is called Solipsis, “a peer-to-peer system for a massivelymulti-participant virtual world. Solipsis is a pure peer-to-peer system for a massively shared virtualworld. There is no server at all: it only relies on end-users’ machines. … Solipsis is a public virtualterritory. The world is initially empty and only users will fill it by creating and running entities. Nopre-existing cities, habitants nor scenario to respect… Solipsis is open-source, so everybody can enhancethe protocols and the algorithms. Moreover, the system architecture clearly separates the different tasks,so that peer-to-peer hackers as well as multimedia geeks can find here a good place to have fun! The bestapproximation of what could be Solipsis in a near future may be Neal Stephenson’s Metaverse.”
The Solipsis Wiki, from which the above quote is taken, is powered by Wikka Wakka Wiki 1.1.6.0.
I wonder when the first libraries and archives will appear.
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Apr 27, 2005
Innovation II
Joaquin Keller told us about Solipsis - a peer-to-peer MMOG. Some of us have heard o
another peermog, but we were asked not to bally-hoo it. Anyway: it's Kazaa meets EverQ
Discuss.
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Comments
There are very few things which cause me to experience the sense of childlike awe which
spoke of, but this is one of them. I want to have the author of this program's baby. I cons
since most likely we're both male, and I'm heterosexual, that could be difficult...however
offer still stands regardless. ;-)
In the words of Wayne and Garth, we most definitely are not worthy.
Posted by: Petrus | April 27, 2005
Looked through it quickly. Any commentary and analysis on the different implementatio
currently disclosed?
Posted by: magicback | April 27, 2005
Petrus, in awe, wrote I want to have the author of this program's baby.
[Not intended to be mean] As a game of wordplay, think of the alternative meanings tha
out of this string of modifers.
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January 2005 December 2004 November 2004 October 2004 September 2004 August 2004
1 0 0 K G r o u p U S Ultima Online EverQuest Dark Age of Camelot Star Wars Galaxies City of Heroes World of Warcraft
1 0 0 K
G r o u p A s i a Legend of Mir Final Fantasy XI Lineage II MU Online Ragnarok Online Lineage Kingdom of the Winds
1 0 0 K G r o u p
E u r o p e Dubit Runescape Playdo Habbo Hotel
M o r e
W o r l d s A Tale in the Desert Achaea Active Worlds Counter-Strike Dark Ages EVE Iron Realms Kingdom of Loathing LambdaMOO Matrix Online Neopets Neverwinter Nights Play.net Project Entropia Ryzom Second Life Shadowbane Skotos
Intended meaning: This program has an author, and I want to have the author's baby.
Meaning based strictly on word order: This program has a baby. The baby was authored
someone. I want to 'have' the author.
****
Anyway - one thing that's either kind of cool about this or should seriously make me feel
unlucky. I have the final pre-pub draft of my book sitting on my desk. In it, there' are lot
places where I write "Hoo boy, once P2P and MMORPG meet, it's going to be a hum-din
when the dang book hits the stands, this will already have happened. *Dated before publ
[sigh]
The closest I come to predicting is saying "You know, these are not pie-in-the-sky foreca
two technologies are laying around right now and just need to be connected." So I don't
maybe it will make me look smart if it's just bubbling up as the book comes out.
I do think peermogs are an almost scary concept. If they work. In the book (more shame
plugging SORRY) I coin this term 'toxic immersion' and discuss how peermogs could be
trouble if they are addictive. We'll just lose people.
Posted by: Edward Castronova | April 27, 2005
I wish this had come out before my talk at KTH Stockholm last week, which was basicall
for the technology that this seems to deliver.
(1.4mb of Powerpoint slides temporarily available here, and you'll need two fonts from h
here to read it).
Richard
Posted by: Richard Bartle | April 27, 2005
I do think peermogs are an almost scary concept. If they work. In the book (mor
shameless plugging SORRY) I coin this term 'toxic immersion' and discuss how
peermogs could be serious trouble if they are addictive. We'll just lose people.
The traditional client server model still has a great deal of utility and appeal that should
you for a while. P2P inherently has issues with authority (ie cheating) and consistancy th
likely to be solved easily.
Posted by: Thabor | April 27, 2005
The war between Kazaa users and the RIAA is a good case in point. Basically, the RIAA p
contractors to flood Kazaa with "fakes" of popular songs, so that if you try to download B
Spears' latest, you get a 30 snippet segment of the song (legal fair use max for copying) f
by silence. Or worse; supposedly Madonna had the network flooded with an obscene dia
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The Game Neverending The Sims Online There ToonTown Vanguard Vzones Yohoho! Puzzle Pirates
against music pirates. Veteran Kazaa users are trying to fight back with things like swapp
stamps of "legit" files, firewalling known RIAA contractors, and the like. Aside from the
legal implications, it's a good example of how a peer-to-peer network can be subverted g
enough motivation.
Beyond that, there's the model we've seen with 3rd party UO servers; most last just long
for the owners to realize that the average MMG user can be somewhat demanding.
Posted by: Scott | April 27, 2005
From the Solipsis wiki:
"The world is initially empty and only users will fill it by creating and running entities. N
existing cities, habitants nor scenario to respect..."
Is it just me, or does anyone else reading that hear, "no ... respect"?
"Solipsis is developed within France Télécom - R&D Division∞.
NB: The name 'Solipsis' comes from Solipsism∞, a philosophical doctrine that claims th
only exists in one's mind."
Go ahead. Try to tell me those two things ("France" and "solipsism") are unrelated. I dar
Seriously, the peermog idea is intriguing. I have technical questions, mostly concerning
(Scalability probably won't be an issue for homebrewed games -- creating enough conten
the box will be a far more common problem.) But the notion of cutting out the slow, exp
middleman is probably too seductive a siren call to ignore.
Question: How will the big client/server players react if a few peermogs get a lot of posit
Will the typical choice be "beat 'em" (ad buys to promote having more/better features th
peermogs) or "join 'em" (create their own peermogs)?
Scott> the average MMG user can be somewhat demanding
Heh.
--Flatfingers
Posted by: Flatfingers | April 27, 2005
The main idea behind Solipsis is to enable a web like cyberspace:
built by users contributions and running on users machines.
We are now like in early 90s with httpd + mosaic but no webpages.
The main differences is that:
1) In Solipsis "mosaic" and "httpd" are indeed the same program (the node), so "readers
"content" providers (next version will implement file sharing)
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2) When you "surf" the web you are alone. In Solipsis you meet the other surfers
I don't know if Solipsis will be the system that will work but I am sure that there will be i
future a system like this one.
-- Joaquin
Posted by: Joaquin Keller | April 27, 2005
I just finished reading Richard's presentation. It seems like a fair summary.
I'd agree that Solipsis seems to have the potential to be very cool. It is clearly in the realm
virtual worlds, not the in the realm of MMOGs.
Commerical use would require a far more stringent set of features that would drift the
arcitecture back towards client-server.. A clear delination of client content from server ru
content. Seperate trust lists to approve transmission of the server and client. And some a
established for publishing the trust lists. Handling of distribution and redundancy.. Prob
few other things that haven't even occured to me.
Its not that attractive commerically for any arbitrary client to be able to publish server d
others, or to act as an authority for rule interaction.
Also each commerical features acts as a limiting factor for how much growth a P2POG co
handle. Someone could probably do well developing something along these lines targete
to MMOG publishers as a 3rd party module
Posted by: Thabor | April 27, 2005
What am I missing here?
This sounds like something that wouldn't be very fun at all. There would be heaps of con
overwhelming majority of which would be complete dreck.
You would never know when the server you were playing on would go down. Your favori
could disappear tomorrow, or an hour from now.
Peer-to-peer is nice for going out and getting something you need on a one-shot basis, b
long term, continuous reliability it definitely is not the way to go.
Furthermore, I have absolutely ZERO confidence in the general public to create fun, com
content. I am not saying nobody can, but the majority cannot.
Go visit Neverwinter Nights fan sites (like NWN Vault). 95% (or more) of the stuff is com
trash.
Maybe I am totally missing something crucial here about what would make this actually
interesting rather than titanically boring and frustrating?
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Posted by: Aryoch | April 27, 2005
Come on. Don't be so pesimistic. The web is user generated.
Some users are more skilled than others some are boring other not.
Look at the blogs.
Sure we need stable solipsis nodes. Just co-locate solipsis nodes with your -stable- apach
Posted by: Joaquin Keller | April 27, 2005
Call me crazy, but with P2P why do you need a server machine at all?
One of the nice things about distributed processing is that you can lose a node or two wit
losing the entire system (as happens when a server coughs and dies). Look at the success
terms of usage numbers) of the SETI@home project -- "graceful degredation" is a hallma
well-designed P2P system.
That said, it will probably limit the kinds of worlds you can create if everybody has to ha
copy of the executable and all data running on their home machine (or even their Apach
server if you really wanted to do it that way). You'll also have issues with players being ab
hack their client files, but some sufficiently burly encryption might prevent that problem
In short, sure there'd be problems with a peermog approach -- so? What technology *do
have inherent problems that need to be overcome?
The content creation problem is a separate issue, and that one I'm not so sanguine about
Sturgeon's Law will definitely apply; the question is whether there'll be enough hits amo
the misses for the entire concept to retain buzzworthy status.
--Flatfingers
Posted by: Flatfingers | April 27, 2005
I think peer to peer worlds have a great future. I’m building one myself. Solipsis looks lik
interesting effort. I particularly like the use of geometry to find missing neighbors. But lo
through the protocol, I didn’t see any explicit system of cheater discovery. That worries m
MMOGs amply demonstrate, there are people who will create cheating nodes “just for fu
Though absolutely pure peer to peer is intellectually satisfying, I’m not sure its entirely p
given that some nodes will be “in the hands of the enemy”. Myself, I think a lot of advant
be got from mostly peer to peer with some central server for final authority. Plus in my c
using an already accepted 3rd party authority like DNS. Is there a cheater discovery pack
the works as elegant and as the position discovery?
Posted by: Hellinar | April 27, 2005
Edward,
On reflection, I realise that you are correct about my grammatical gaffe in the earlier com
Terra Nova: Innovation II - 03/05/2005 - http://terranova.blogs.com/terra_nova/2005/04/innovation_ii....
Sadly I consumed a certain amount of marijuana some years ago, as part of the usual tro
youth that I believe many of us experience. However, I have noticed that my capacity for
coherent grammar and sentence structure (indeed, my degree of intelligence in general)
genuinely never been at quite the same level that it was before I smoked.
Posted by: Petrus | April 27, 2005
I'm messing around with Solipsis at the moment. There are a couple of people on, I think
can't quite figure out how to communicate with them. There is a chat room, but they don
to be receiving my messages. Will keep trying, as I'm interested in this.
Posted by: Petrus | April 27, 2005
Edward,
Just noticed your comment about toxic immersion re peermogs, and the threat of losing
Based on some of the horror stories I've read about EQ, I'm not sure how a peermog cou
necessarily be much worse. (although if it could, I really don't want to think about it) I re
hearing recently about Sony supposedly granting people the ability to order pizza from w
EQ...which in my mind is completely wrong.
Although the other thing re peermogs is that in my experience with eMule anywayz, you
generally don't get anywhere near your full bandwidth capacity for downloading files. If
the case, it's unlikely to me that a fully three dimensional environment would be feasible
peermog...and although it's true that MUDs can be addictive, (I have a brother who faile
two years of high school because of the amount he was playing Imperial Diku) from wha
seen, the 3D element seems to be a prerequisite for generating truly life-threatening add
problems.
Posted by: Petrus | April 27, 2005
Peer-to-peer shared spaces aren't new, by the way. Croquet, being worked on by numero
educational institutions and led by Alan Kay and David Smith, is also peer to peer and se
quite a bit further along.
More importantly, the security aspects of p2p MMOs are pretty scary. While I am a huge
user-created content (obviously) a p2p MMO is different than using firefox to surf to apa
Imagine web surfing where you give every website you visit your identity, credit cards, a
your stuff for safe keeping. You have the delightful combination of hostile script code su
hostile hosts. The positive is that everyone is trying to solve this security problem -- the n
is that it might not be solvable.
Posted by: Cory Ondrejka | April 27, 2005
Scott> The war between Kazaa users and the RIAA is a good case in point. Basically, the
pays contractors to flood Kazaa with "fakes" of popular songs.
You understand what this is, right? This is force projection within the continuum. It's no
dropping litigation or bombs on servers. It's going inside the comm network and workin
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its rules. And that's all you can do to project force in a P2P network. You realize what it m
The only way for, say, a government to influence a P2P fantasy world is to send agents in
world and use griefing or PvP rules to get the community to do what you want.
It's Marines in mithril armor.
Stealth and those wicked high-level AE spells have genuine security implications. 'Bind S
becomes a useful surveillance tool. The norms of PvP combat in today's worlds are ur-str
of conflict in real wars that will happen some day, in some system.
I floated some of this stuff to serious security people about 18 months ago. I don't think
bought it. But I can't get around it.
Cory> Peer-to-peer shared spaces aren't new, by the way. Croquet, being worked on by
numerous educational institutions and led by Alan Kay and David Smith, is also peer to
seems quite a bit further along.
That's the other one. Julian Lombardi at Wisconsin is the name I associated there.
Hellinar> I think peer to peer worlds have a great future. I'm building one myself.
Gah!!!! That makes three! I'll retire to Bedlam.
Posted by: Edward Castronova | April 27, 2005
Richard's vision and the aim of Solipsis , and perhaps Edward's (have to read the book),
probably what is going to happen rather than P2P Virtual Worlds, but what of P2P MOG
NWN?
On the gaming front, I envision more of connected game worlds hosted by a decent num
ISPs with protocols to move avatars and objects across worlds. The downside case is tha
will start putting forth immigration & visit policies and end up looking very much like th
Posted by: magicback | April 28, 2005
The Solipsis system describes a peer-to-peer system. Richard Bartle's slides desicribe a
client/server architecture where everyone can have a server with their own private world
two are different, and I suspect Richard Bartle's proposal is more doable, or at least has
ability for more interesting content.
So... I wave my hand, add a few items to my VW's schedule, and the system is magically
working. What does it give the user?
1) The ability to create their own worlds, which they have in text MUDs, the system I'm w
on, and Second Life. (My system will have static 360 surround images like Myst III, no 3
accelerator or animated models.)
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2) The ability to host their worlds on their own computers, as with text MUDs and my sy
3) Convenient way to portal between worlds. They don't have to type in a new URL, but
on an in-game door. Easy to impliment.
4) The ability to port their character's visuals, as well as approved items, between worlds
where I run into non-technical problems:
a) 3D model - I wave my hands. Poof. Done. Except for some policing with too many pol
offensive models, etc.
b) Approved races and items - Poof. Done. However, the chances are that any unique ite
from a world won't transfer over. A stock sword might, but a sword of vorpal undead slay
probably won't, UNLESS a group of VW authors gets together and defines a standard lib
new stock objects, like D&D coming out with supplimentary rule books of magic items,
monsters, and races.
c) What prevents one VW from being monty haul and destroying the VW economy of eve
else's world? Nothing. My VW can give players 1M GP just for entering. Of course, my VW
blacklisted, and any character referred from my generous world can be denied. BUT, unl
worlds block my site, one of them can be used for "loot" laundering, carrying the loot fro
world, to the Carribean shell world, to any other world. I can also change my IP address
back in business until I'm blacklisted again. Conversely, a world subscribes to a list of tru
worlds and blacklists everyone else, but I suspect the average "confederation" of self-tru
worlds would be less than 20 members.
d) Minor problems, like: New PC enters world and finished in room A. Several weeks lat
enters, but with different stats and the referral says to put the PC in room B. The default
behavior is to use the new PC stats along with room B, but either case could be argued, e
if the new version of the PC had lost some items. Another minor problem: PC's or user's
already used by someone else.
From a player perspective:
1) I think socializers will love it. It may turn into one of the many huge but empty 3D cha
out there, though. (Socializers may want mud-mail forwarding, which is a bit tricky.)
2) Non-competitive RPG will like the concept of taking their characters between worlds,
might not be so happy when their favorite magic item doesn't transfer. This can be most
handled by logo-ing worlds that comply to specific magic-item standards.
3) Competitive players won't like it because there will always be an overly generous VW
there, and probably intentionally built.
4) Explorers will like it.
5) Builders will like it. Again, they may end up building too much. 1 billion virtual world
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counting, for only 1 million players.
Any comments? I'd like to be convinced.
Posted by: Mike Rozak | April 28, 2005
I do think peermogs are an almost scary concept. If they work. In the book (more sham
plugging SORRY) I coin this term 'toxic immersion' and discuss how peermogs could be
trouble if they are addictive. We'll just lose people.
Don't worry, Sturgeon's Law to the rescue. 90% of what the peers will produce will be cr
because 90% of anything is crap. And peers don't have a quality control department to s
Posted by: Tobold | April 28, 2005
I like the idea. However, relating it to the Metaverse in Snowcrash is a bit over the top fo
seems that this current setup is complex and that in order to truly "enter" this virtual wo
need to have a certain level of technical proficiency. It is one thing to let advanced users
stuff and add new content but in order for this to be successful you need to have someth
everyone.
Posted by: Seth Sivak | April 28, 2005
1) Crosbie Fitch has been talking about distributed virtual worlds since the mid-90's, and
series of articles about design considerations and the various issues surrounding massiv
persistent worlds in a p2p environment (including, if I remember correctly, some of the
concerns mentioned here) which were published at least five years ago on Gamasutra.
2) As others here have noted, Alan Kay and the Croquet crowd have been tackling this sp
a while, at its most basic and critical points, and made some striking progress.
3) Distributed VW has always been the assumed architecture for our Mars First! project
also one of the architectures under consideration for a foundation-funded educational M
which I'm beginning to assemble the advisory and development teams.
I'm not suggesting that we or anyone else has already solved the thorny problems or alre
a viable, scalable, peer-based VW. Just pointing out that peer-based architecture has bee
the strategic thinking of some virtual world developers for a while now. It is a natural ap
of our increasingly P2P culture (not to mention an inherently democratic and decentrali
architecture that might/should lead thinking about mmo design away from the authorita
centralized and paranoid model it currently exclusively inhabits, toward a trust-based,
heterarchical and cooperative model of development, creation, community management
administration...)
All of which is not to take anything from this latest effort, in any way. But it probably sho
surprise this crowd that quite a few, similar think-outside-the-box efforts are well under
outside the mainstream, risk-averse game industry.
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Perhaps it just reminds us all of the importance of staying inquisitive and looking beyon
"usual suspects" to keep abrest of new ideas and new research, and of the danger of livin
our assumptions, lest we find ourselves intently perfecting the horse-driven carriage whi
are dreaming of rocketships to the Moon.
Incidentally, security is only a major concern in an adversarial relationship.
Posted by: galiel | April 28, 2005
Cory> a p2p MMO is different than using firefox to surf to apache. <
What if the architecture was similar to using Firefox to surf Apache? That’s what I am ai
in my world. In my personal vocabulary, I’d divide Net protocols into Watcher protocols
Listener protocols. A web browser is a Watcher. The client looks at a particular place of i
choosing at a time of its own choosing. Most MMOG client use Listener protocols, they o
ear to the world, and wait for someone else to send them at message. My theory is that L
protocols are inherently less secure than Watcher protocols. Solipsis protocol has a stron
Listener component to it, which in my view decreases the security.
Listener protocols are widely adopted in MMOGs because they lead to a faster, exciting w
But my world supports a gardening game, where speed is not such an issue. My percepti
that current MMOGs are aimed at people who have had a boring day at school and come
and want some action. My game is aimed more at people who have had a frazzled day at
office, and want some beauty and tranquility. With perhaps some quiet but creative putt
around. I think a Watcher type protocol provides enough speed for that application. Wh
provides the security benefits I expect, time will tell.
Posted by: Hellinar | April 28, 2005
EC Habitats (c. 1997) was initially p2p and had secure distributed objects. Each system h
it's own objects, and you could carry your objects (avatar, pocket contents, etc.) on to oth
people servers. This is a Damn Hard Problem and something Chip and I have been remi
writing about.
The star connection problem becomes unwieldy, so we rearchitected around a proxy-hos
- When you carry an object you host to another server, that host recieves host authority o
object. This massively reduced the connection mess.
Solipsis has a long way to go and (if it starts to succeed) is about to hit a raft of nasty pro
like the one I described above.
I must take issue with one naïve statement in this thread though:
galiel> "Incidentally, security is only a major concern in an adversarial relationship."
This is demonstratively and utterly false.
Any time you offer your machine for connection in a distributed network, ALL connectio
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security concern. How do you think software viruses spread? Someone you trust gives it
Security is a design constraint in a distributed system, not a layer, not an afterthought.
Posted by: F. Randall farmer | April 28, 2005
> This is force projection within the continuum.
I fear the day when class balance issues are settled by summits in Geneva.
Posted by: Scott | April 28, 2005
> This is force projection within the continuum.
I fear the day when class balance issues are settled by summits in Geneva.
...but, but, isn't that metagaming ?
Eek !
;)
Posted by: Yaka St.Aise | April 28, 2005
Sorry, I got into a bit of a rant in my last post. The idea of a distributed world is technica
interesting to me. Unfortunately, I can't find enough player benefits to outweigh the dow
and difficulties of implimentation. Many people here obviously think the benefits outwe
costs. So what am I missing?
Posted by: Mike Rozak | April 28, 2005
>I didn’t see any explicit system of cheater discovery. That worries me. As MMOGs amp
demonstrate, there are people who will create cheating nodes “just for fun”.
It seems that if you could distribute all world decisions over random multiple nodes (and
ones local in virutal space)... you would have the ability to improve cheater detection gre
player A from node A suddenly starts killing everyone around through using some cheat
server... Servers B and C randomly picked to audit that data will disagree with the result
(minority reports automatically dropped, or some such rule), and automatically invalida
A's inputs. This could also be used as sort of a RAID server to backup content from any w
(node) that goes down. Just make sure there's at least three copies of everything (or mor
depending on demand/load balancing). Easier said than done, of course.
Posted by: Yak | April 28, 2005
Minority Report: Didn't anyone see the movie!
The implementation is probably more like what they are doing for micropayments: arcan
statistical probabilistic quantum analysis :)
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Posted by: magicback | April 29, 2005
There are some works on preventing cheating in distributed multiplayer games. See for i
NEO (pdf).
Solipsis is far to be a funny world ready to welcome gamers. It just provides a good infra
for such peer-to-peer virtual world.
By the way, I guess that it aims to create a "meeting place" rather than a "shoot'em up"..
Posted by: Gwendal | April 29, 2005
> Security is a design constraint in a distributed system, not a layer, not an afterthought
Randy is correct, of course, and my intentionally provocative statement was poorly word
thus did not communicate my intent. I think the point I *meant* to make is still valid:
There are many aspects to security, and many layers of implementation. I was addressin
gameplay-sociological considerations, intending to make the point that games centered
violent confrontational competition, which also assume an antagonistic dynamic betwee
developer and player, tend to have a rather large administrative nightmare. Some aspect
security are purely structural, as Randy points out, but others are a matter of design and
dynamics.
For example, IP theft is a problem in a proprietary system, not an open one. Piracy is a p
when units sold are the prime revenue base, as opposed to a purely subscription-based b
model. Certain hacks are only a problem in a game based on power dynamics such as str
defense, offense, etc. - they are less of a problem in a game designed around other huma
dynamics. (It was the latter I was thinking of primarily when I made my poorly worded
pronouncement. In a game that is not zero-sum and not about individual accumulation
and wealth, many forms of "hacking" have less of a meaningful effect on gameplay.
Many security issues can be solved with intentional social architecture, that was my poin
seems that, in today's game designs, ALL security is of the military mindset - armed gua
punitive measure, and an assumption of venality on the part of the "enemy" (our audien
customer!) What I am suggesting is that there are other forms of security that follow a d
model. Not everyone in every community has to put seven locks on their door and own a
doberman.
In real life, I don't have to worry about my wife hacking my bank account - we share the
account and know all of each other's passwords. We have to, we are a partnership raising
family, and if anything were to happen to one of us, the other would need access to every
share.
Similarly, when I was in the military, I didn't have to worry about locking up my belongi
when I was deployed with my own close-knit unit.
Security is not purely a technical problem, it is also, in many case even predominantly, a
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relationship problem.
We should, perhaps, look at what in our design models exacerbates security issues and w
our design considerations could ease them.
That is the point I was attempting, in my awkward short-hand, to make.
Posted by: galiel | April 29, 2005
A real example of non-defensive security management in a multi-player game:
In Terra, an early MMOG, I largely solved the problem of bug exploits through a social a
rather than a technical one.
I simply nurtured a culture where there was greater reward in being a "bug discoverer" t
exploiting the bug for game advantage.
We celebrated our "Bug Hunters", lauded them to the community, and even let their clan
our supervision and within reason, enjoy the exploit for a short time before expecting th
disclose it. No one ever abused this privilege, and, I found, it turned those most apt to da
the game into its greatest protectors. Publicity and fame turned out to be more powerful
impetus to cheat.
Of course, it helped that we had also designed the game as a group v group, rather than a
environment. I found that this created a dynamic more like sports competition than bloo
combat - even though Terra was a tank war game.
Obviously, you can't protect a server from a DOS attack with good will and wishful think
what makes the real world work is more than just police with guns, it is the norms of civ
and the consensual agreement to behave within certain parameters. Design and social
architecture have determinative influence on behavior--areas which don't seem to be ad
considered in these kind of discussions.
Posted by: galiel | April 29, 2005
Peer worlds could tag their "money" objects with public key encryption of serial number
they'd be able to have currency issuers with peer specific exchange rates. That way a wor
gave money out too freely would find its issued currency was not very valuable... 1000 go
issued by free money city might be worth 1 silver in work for your money land... I think t
could be done but it'd get complex of course :)
Posted by: Dee Lacey | April 29, 2005
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* Development Status: 4 - Beta* Environment: Web Environment* Intended Audience: Education, Science/Research* License: GNU General Public License (GPL)* Natural Language: English* Operating System: Linux* Programming Language: Java, JavaScript, Perl* Topic: Dynamic Content, HTTP Servers, Display# posted by MXTRON : 11:54
Solipsis
Solipsis is a pure peer-to-peer system for a massively shared virtual world. There is no server at all: it only relies on end-users' machines.
Solipsis is a public territory and not a privately owned space. Also, asSolipsis is open source, everybody can enhance the protocols andcontribute to the Creation. The world does not pre-exist, it is emptyand only the user will fill it by create and run entities. The bestapproximation of Solipsis may be Neal Stephenson's Metaverse∞.
The shared virtual worlds of nowadays MMORPG strongly rely on privately owned servers. These servers are an expensive bottleneck that limits their scalability. Moreover, these servers bound the freedom of the virtual world inhabitants and the imagination of the world-builders and developers. Solipsis resolves these problems. Moreover, it is free and open-source.
* Development Status: 3 - Alpha* Environment: No Input/Output (Daemon), Win32 (MS Windows), X11Applications* Intended Audience: End Users/Desktop, Science/Research* License: GNU Lesser General Public License (LGPL)* Natural Language: English, French* Operating System: OS Independent* Programming Language: Python* Topic: Internet# posted by MXTRON : 11:47
Classic Forum
The Classic Forum is a classical threaded forum that consists of a daemon that holds all data in RAM and client programs that query the daemon or use shared memory to retrieve the data. It's designed to be very fast and flexible and has a very well designed plugin interface. The user interface features 72 configuration options and includes very nifty filtering options.
[Environment] No Input/Output (Daemon), Web Environment[License] OSI Approved :: Artistic License
Solipsis: Information From Answers.com http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery?s=solipsis&method=2&gwp=13
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Solipsis is an open-source system for a massively multi-participant shared virtual wordesigned by Joaquin Keller and Gwendal Simon at France Télécom Research andDevelopment Labs. It aims to provide the infrastructure for a Metaverse-like public vterritory. Relying on a peer-to-peer architecture, the virtual world may potentially be inhabited by an unlimited number of participants.
A Solipsis entity is a basic element of the virtual world. To exist, an entity should runNode that may be controlled by a Navigator. Nodes are self-organized in a pure peernetwork where relationships depend on virtual proximity. A Navigator is mainly devoact as a Graphical User Interface. Some communication services may be plugged on tNavigator for interaction between entities.
The virtual world is initially empty and is only filled by entities runned by end-user's computers. All Solipsis Nodes are functionnaly equal and no pre-fixed infrastructure irequired. Therefore, there is no bound on the freedom of the virtual world inhabitants imagination of the world-builders and developers.
Solipsis currently consists of:
a peer-to-peer protocol over UDP which is used by Nodes. The Solipsis Protogives to a Node the ability to ensure the presence of its entity within the virtual Moreover, this protocol aims to guaranty the maintaining of some suitable globproperties.a Node-Navigator Interface: an API between the Node and the Navigator. Curin XML-RPC, this interface allows a Navigator to control a Node and to retrievinformations on the virtual surroundings.a basic implementation of a Solipsis Node and a Solipsis Navigator under licenL-GPL. The Navigator features a 2D representation of the virtual world and cha
Solipsis: Information From Answers.com http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery?s=solipsis&method=2&gwp=13
This entry is from Wikipedia, the leading user-contributed encyclopedia. It may not hbeen reviewed by professional editors (see full disclaimer)
Mentioned Insolipsis is mentioned in the following topics: Snow Crash MMORPGpeer-to-peer Python programming language
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Solipsis InfoFree articles and informationabout Solipsis.www.MyWiseOwl.com
Solipsis is a system for a massively multi-participant shared virtual world designed by Joaquin Keller and Gwendal Simon at France Telecom R&D.
It relies on a peer-to-peer architecture, so its main characteristic is the scalability: the world may be inhabited by an unlimited number of participants.
As there is no central authority, there is no bound on the freedom of the virtual world inhabitants and the imagination of the world-builders and developers.
The program consists in two distinct sub-modules: the Solipsis Node is responsible of the maintaining of the virtual world structure, while the Navigator allows the user to "drive" theirs nodes around Solipsis world and chat or interact with other people in the world.
Solipsis on Sourceforge (http://sourceforge.net/projects/solipsis/)
Retrieved from "http://www.mywiseowl.com/articles/Solipsis"
This page has been accessed 34 times. This page was last modified 12:13, 22 Nov 2004. All text is available under the terms of the GNU Free Documentation License (see Copyrights for details).
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Multi-participant virtual worldsTechnologies of CooperationPosted by Gerrit Visser at 11:06 PM
Bruce points Smartmobs to Solipsis: A peer-to-peer system for a massively multi-participant virtual world.
"Solipsis runs under the GNU Lesser General Public License, is in effect a vacuum, empty of all life. No pre-existing cities. No people. No scenarios.
In the Solipsis virtual world, you can have a local view only: no one can have a global view. It will, for example, be impossible to know exactly how many people are in Solipsis. Objects and people (avatars)are the same. They run the same code. They are peers - nodes in a logical network that will spread all over the internet. That's the dream behind the solipsis project."
There is no server, it relies on end-users' machines.Solipsis is open-source. Everybody can enhance the protocols and the algorithms.
Solipsis is developed within France Télécom - R&DDivision∞
NB : The name 'Solipsis' comes from Solipsism∞, aphilosophical doctrine that claims that reality onlyexists in one's mind.
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Comments
The release annoucement:
Solipsis: a peer-to-peer shared virtual world
---------------------------------------------
The Solipsis Team would like to announce the release ofSolipsis-0.8.
http://solipsis.netofpeers.net/
Solipsis is a massively multiparticipant virtual worldbased on a peer-to-peer system (ie without servers).
Some Solipsis prominent features are:
* Scalable to millions, billions of users and entities* Solipsis is intended to be as wide as the Web* The virtual world is user contributed (so it is for now
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P2p meets MMORPG
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LxBeast5000+
Joined: 10 Mar 2005Location: England, UK
Posted: Fri Apr 29, 2005 7:34 am Post subject:P2p meets MMORPG
Story : http://p2pnet.net/story/4684
And it was interesting indeed because Keller was tellingus about the release of Solipsis-0.8, a p2p MMORPGwith truly astounding dimensions for a, “massivelyshared virtual world,” as Keller and his co-developerssay in their Solipsis site. “There is no server at all: itonly relies on end-users' machines.”_________________Sign your avatar up here, or I'll be forced to do it for you - Vote scratch! in the current avatar round!
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moculon500+
Joined: 24 Feb 2004
Posted: Sun May 01, 2005 9:09 am Post subject:taken a look
i've taken a look at this, it's very interesting. i'm sure it would help the developers if anyone wants to idle in there, chat about ideas or maybe contribute.
my coding skills are considerably deficient... so i'm not going to be much help but i've run into some interesting ppl on there in just a few hours 'wandering' around.
at the moment it really is an empty world, but the lack of a central server, and the ability to add mods surely can lead to anything people want.
i'm sure most people here can see their mozilla in front of them and see that open source creations can become quite impressive._________________'just because you feel it, doesn't mean it's there'
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Sunday, 1 May 2005
Solipsis
quote [ "Hoo boy, once P2P and MMORPG meet, it'sgoing to be a hum-dinger" - Edward Castronova
Solipsis?
...It comes from Solipsism, a philosophical doctrine that claims that reality only exists in one's mind.... ]
Some people will find it wierd to imagine a world without God. In the Solipsis virtual world, you can have a local view only: no one can have a global view. It will, for example, be impossible to know exactly how many people are in Solipsis. "Objects" and people (avatars) are the same. They run the same code. They're peers - nodes in a logical network that will spread all over the internet.
That's the dream behind the solipsis project.
More:
http://p2pnet.net/story/4684
It's oh so empty at the moment. Lets all get manifest desitiny on it and colonise?[sci&tech] [by Sgt Harry 'Snapper' Organs..@12:59amGMT] [+9 Interesting]
Comments
popeoftheweasles said @ 1:19am GMT on 1st May [Score:1 Insightful] i haven't even looked at what you posted, but you get +1 for the monty pythonreference in your name
Sgt Harry 'Snapper' Organs.. said @ 1:25am GMT on 1st May ...would you rather Ratty, in toad of toad hall?
val said @ 1:35am GMT on 1st May I believe Henry Rollings wrote a book about solipisim. He embraced it for a year orso, then wrote about it.
val said @ 1:35am GMT on 1st May Gah. ROLLINS.
Sgt Harry 'Snapper' Organs.. said @ 1:39am GMT on 1st May Rollin rollin rollin,
Sgt Harry 'Snapper' Organs.. said @ 1:41am GMT on 1st May [Score:1 Funny] Though the streams are swollenKeep them dogies rollin'Rawhide!
capodibrio said @ 1:51am GMT on 1st May This is an interesting idea for a video game. What I don't get is how you advance in avideo game that you are making yourself. Or even if there would be advancement or if you would just admire other people's creations.
wockyman said @ 2:40am GMT on 1st May It's not a video game, per se... it's more like the Metaverse (as it, indeed, proclaimsto itself to be).
Moleculor said @ 2:42pm GMT on 1st May Sounds like the metaverse to me. (Or a less centralized version of Second Life.)
wockyman said @ 3:28am GMT on 1st May Anyone know if there are any plug-ins for this other than the chat one that comes
Solipsis, an attempte to approximate Neal Stephenson's Metaverse, is "a public virtual territory. The world is initially empty and only users will fill it by creating and running entities. No pre-existing cities, habitants nor scenario to respect...
"Solipsis is open-source, so everybody can enhance the protocols and the algorithms. Moreover, the system architecture clearly separates the different tasks, so that peer-to-peer hackers as well as multimediageeks can find here a good place to have fun!" /Solipsis/# : : 6:54 AM
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Pappmaskin Diaré Techblog: Solipsis: A peer-to-peer system for a mas... http://pappmaskin.blogspot.com/2005/05/solipsis-peer-to-peer-system-...
1 of 2 03/05/2005 13:06
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Solipsis: A peer-to-peer system for a massivelymulti-participant virtual worldFor those of you missing the mud-playing days :
Solipsis: A peer-to-peer system for a massively multi-participant
virtual world: "Solipsis is a pure peer-to-peer system for a massively
shared virtual world. There is no server at all: it only relies on
end-users' machines.
The shared virtual worlds of nowadays MMORPG strongly rely on
privately owned servers. These servers are an expensive bottleneck
that limits their scalability. In addition, these servers bound the
freedom of the virtual world inhabitants and the imagination of the
world-builders and developers. Solipsis solves these problems with a
free and open-source system.
Solipsis is a public virtual territory. The world is initially empty and
only users will fill it by creating and running entities. No pre-existing
cities, habitants nor scenario to respect...
Solipsis is open-source, so everybody can enhance the protocols and
the algorithms. Moreover, the system architecture clearly separates
the different tasks, so that peer-to-peer hackers as well as
multimedia geeks can find here a good place to have fun !"
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p2pnet.net - the original daily p2p and digital media news site http://p2pnet.net/story/4684
p2pnet.net News Feature:- “Looks really interesting,” wereplied in response to an email we’d had from JoaquinKeller in France.
Social software addict: meet people and make new friendsElectronic pioneer: take your land for free and settle the new worldPython programmer: add your own communication plugins and hacks
And it was interesting indeed because Keller was telling us about the release of Solipsis-0.8, a p2p MMORPG with truly astounding dimensionsfor a, “massively shared virtual world,” as Keller and his co-developerssay in their Solipsis site. “There is no server at all: it only relies onend-users' machines.”
A peer-to-peer world ----- with file sharing to come.
At the moment, however, Solipsis, open source and running under under the GNU Lesser General Public License, is in effect a vacuum, empty of all life.
No pre-existing cities. No people. No scenarios.
But it's destined to slowly evolve through a network of peers collaborating in real-time to populate and develop it.
And to make it really intriguing, “the system architecture clearly separatesthe different tasks, so that peer-to-peer hackers as well as multimediageeks can have fun,” Keller told p2pnet.
Solipsis is scalable to, "millions, billions of users and entities and is meant to be as wide as the Web."
For now, it runs on Windows and Linux. But the Solipsis team plan to develop a Mac OS X version in the near future.
We had a brief email chat with Keller, and we’ll be posting a detailedpaper on Solipsis by Keller and co-developer, Gwendal Simon, in the nearfuture.
Read on >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
p2pnet: Whereabouts are you France?
Keller: In Paris. I work at the France Telecom Research Center of Issy Les Moulineaux
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p2pnet.net - the original daily p2p and digital media news site http://p2pnet.net/story/4684
2 of 4 03/05/2005 12:25
p2pnet: Is Solipsis your creation?
Keller: Yes. I came up with the idea around 1998. But the project really started in 2001 when it was funded by France Telecom.
p2pnet: Why did you decide on Solipsis for the name?
Keller: It comes from Solipsism, a philosophical doctrine that claims that reality only exists in one's mind.
Some people will find it wierd to imagine a world without God. In the Solipsis virtual world, you can have a local view only: no one can have a global view. It will, for example, be impossible to know exactly how many people are in Solipsis. "Objects" and people (avatars) are the same. They run the same code. They're peers - nodes in a logical network that will spread all over the internet.
That's the dream behind the solipsis project.
"If I see everybody there and everybody sees me there, I am there."
p2pnet: Who’s working with you?
Keller: In September, 2001, I recruited a student, Gwendal Simon to work with me on Solipsis. Antoine Pitrou started working on Solipis in November, and Emmanuel Bréton in March. Most of the code runningtoday was written by Antoine who's the developer of SPIP. Didier Gorges (monetization) and David Dugoujon (coding) are also working on theproject.
p2pnet: What's the goal behind Solipsis?
Keller: The main idea is to enable a web-like cyberspace built by users' contributions and running on users' machines.
p2pnet: What stage are you at?
Keller: It's like we're now in early 90s with httpd + mosaic, but no webpages. The main differences are: 1) In Solipsis "mosaic" and "httpd" are indeed the same program (the node), so "readers" are also "content" providers (the next version will implement file sharing); and, 2) When you
p2pnet.net - the original daily p2p and digital media news site http://p2pnet.net/story/4684
3 of 4 03/05/2005 12:25
"surf" the web you are alone. In Solipsis you meet the other surfers.
I don't know if Solipsis will be the system that will work, but I'm sure that there will be in the near future a system like this one.
p2pnet: How did it get started?
Keller: Reading Neal Stephenson's Snow Crash science fiction novel 1998. Then I came up with the core of the algorithm in 2001. We had the first piece of code running in 2002 (Gwendal's work mainly). Solipsis became open source in early 2004 and I presented Solipsis at codecon2004.
p2pnet: I see you're under GNU. What does this means in terms of future development?
Keller: We hope other developers will join us.
p2pnet: Can (or could) Solipsis be used in contexts other than MMORPG?
Keller: Solipsis is aimed at social interaction. Gaming is not the primary intended application. Most people go on MMORPG to meet people.Getting points is not the main motivation. People will interact as in Instant Messaging but with previously unknown people. Solipsis is a meeting place. People will agregate according to their interests, so there will be places to talk about sports, other to talk about music or politics.
p2pnet: What are your future plans?
Keller: We'll continue to work on Solipsis. In a few weeks we're going to add "profiles" to entities. Profiles are sort of web pages with links to other entities. They'll give flesh to the world.
We plan to made web2solipsis and solipis2web links - ie, you click on a web page and you jump somewhere in solipsis.
p2pnet: Will Solipsis always be free?
Keller: It will. We also have plans to build a business on Solipsis and there will probably be opportunities for others to make money as well on Solipsis.
=============
"I have the final pre-pub draft of my book sitting on my desk," blogs Edward Castronova, associate professor of telecommunications, Indiana University, on Terra Nova. "In it, there' are lots of places where I write 'Hoo boy, once P2P and MMORPG meet, it's going to be a hum-dinger'!"
Keller won his Master’s in Mathematical Logic from the University ofParis VII (Jussieu) and his PhD in network management and distributedsystems from the University of Versailles. His interests include p2psystems, distributed algorithms and multimedia communications.
Gwendal Simon won his Masters in computer sciences, specializing indistributed systems and networks, from the University of Rennes I. His
p2pnet.net - the original daily p2p and digital media news site http://p2pnet.net/story/4684
4 of 4 03/05/2005 12:25
interests include distributed caches for web pages and multimediastreams. He’s taught computer programming at the Saint-Cyr School andis now studying for a PhD in videoconferencing and massively distributedshared VR systems at France Telecom R&D, and INRIA-Rennes.
==================
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Wenn man in der VergangenheitMulti-Player-Spiele oder andere Chat- und VR-Anwendungen programmierte, sah man immer einen zentralen Server vor, der zumindest diverse Buddy-Listen und Puffer-Dienste vorsah.Soch seit Peer-To-Peer-Computing seinen Siegeszug angetreten hat, stellt man solche Konzepte in Frage.
In der Forschungs- und Entwicklungsabtelung der France Telecom [die Seite lädtbei mir nicht] zum Beispiel arbeitet man derzeit an 'Solipsis' einer "massively multi-participant virtual world" wie es im Entwickler-Wiki heißt.
Was bisher zu sehen ist, ist noch recht holprig zu bedienen und eher arm an Features:* Auf einer riesigen 'Fläche' siehtman andere User.* Wenn man sich zu 'peers' verbindet und die einem auch 'andocken', kann man (bisher nur)Chatten.* Das System ist in Python geschrieben und kann durch eigene Python-Erweiterungen durch jeden Nutzer um Funktionen bereichert werden. (Das ist der eigentliche Knackpunkt.)
Wer schon mal in einem MUD gespielt und programmiert hat (OliverG = Elder Wizard in retirement bei TUBmud ), der
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weiß, was das bedeutet: Man hat eine ganze Horde an Leuten, die ziemlich viel Arbeit und Kreativität in solche Systemestecken und auch vor der Mitarbeit an der Entwicklung der Code-Grundlage nichtzurückschrecken.
Spielkram ist das an sich kaum, denn gerade Multi-User-"Computing-Systeme"dürften noch einigeEntwicklungsstadien durchmachen - und der Sprung zum reinen P2P-System ist da einwichtiger Meilenstein.
Wer also bei der Geburt eines solchhn Systems dabei sein will: Bitte schön, Solipsis.
Die Navigationsebene: Nur 'sichtbare' Peers stehen als Chatparter oder zur Anbindung als Peer zur Verfügung.
---Update:
Es ist mir gelungen via Solipsis
netzdinge geht. aber da...OliverG - 29. Apr, 09:19
Wernicht mit dem Netz umgehen kann, sagen die Wissenschafter,...anaximander - 28. Apr, 23:06
haben die..... auch geschaut ob die leute auch bücher haben...OliverG - 28. Apr, 17:57
Und das als ErgänzungErst wenn die Kinder keinen Aussicht auf Bildung haben,und...anaximander - 28. Apr, 17:50
Bei der Zeitungslektüre:...Erst wenn der letze Maler verdurstet, der letzteMusiker...OliverG - 28. Apr, 10:31
Siemens: Vorstands-Tagebuch-Blog...Spätestens, wenn dieMitarbeiter ihren Chef nur...OliverG - 28. Apr, 09:22
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mit einem der entwickler Kontakt aufzunehmen "Joaquin".Zusammenfassung des Interviews:* In etwa einem Monat soll ein Plugin für Filesharing fertig sein.* Ich war ach der erste 'Nicht-Bekannte', den er im System gertroffen hat.* Mit der Funktion 'Actions / Jump near...' gelangt man, wenn man die voreingestellte IP 'anspringt' zu einem Treffpunkt mit Leuten, die eventuellChatten mögen u.A.* Man denkt über einen Websitenach, der eher 'user-orientert' ist udn arbeitet aktuell auch an einem Paper für die IETF.
Another update:Wanna chat in Unicode?Solipsis has it:
(a line in Russian and in Arabic)Also meet Zeze and Lulu, developer and project manager at Solipsis...
English summary:R& D at France Telekom is developing a purely p2p chat andapplication environment in Python that can be expanded by
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users - much like a MUD."Solipsis" as it is called, has now only a chat function but will have filesharing ablilities within a month.To find people to chat to: Use the 'Actions / Jump near...' function and jump to the IP/Port entered there.You can chat in unicode: Russian or Arabic? No prob.The developers are planning to publish more user-oriented documentation oth their Wiki soon.
Comment: Looks cool (albeit confusing) right now, go and watch how something new and unique is growing.
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anaximander - 26. Apr, 13:08
Python - Solipsis
huch, ich kann mir was einfacheres vorstellen. Sieht aus, als wäre das alles nurEingeweihten zugänglich. Wenn es mir recht ist, wollten die Franzosen mal ein reinfranzösiches Internet - vielleichtpasst Solipsis exakt da rein :-)antworten
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Solipsis: P2P meet virtual worldsBy Anonymous Hero, Section New ReleasesPosted on Mon May 2nd, 2005 at 05:51:51 PM GMTp2pnet reports about the first release of Solipsis, a peer-to-peer massively multi-participant virtual world. "Some people will find it weird to imagine a world without God. In the Solipsis virtual world, you can have a local view only: no one can have a global view. It will, for example, be impossible to know exactly how many people are in Solipsis. 'Objects' and people (avatars) are the same. They run the same code. They're peers - nodes in a logical network that will spread all over the internet." At the moment, however, Solipsis, opensource and running under the GNU Lesser General Public License, is in effect a vacuum, empty of all life. No pre-existing cities. No people. No scenarios.
Related Links+ p2pnet+ Solipsis+ More on Cyber Liberties+ Also by Anonymous Hero
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Indiegamer Developer Discussion Boards - Peer to peer MMORPG? http://forums.indiegamer.com/showthread.php?t=2914
1 of 6 03/05/2005 14:44
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04-20-2005, 11:19 AM
tentons Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2004Location:USAPosts: 294
Peer to peer MMORPG?
Could something like this reduce/eliminate the costs of running a MMORPG? Seems it could lower the barrier to entry for indiessince one part of the problem (apart from development) is actually supporting the servers etc.
P2P might not be the best solution because of security that servers deliver. Without a server that has an image of thegameworld and characters and stats people can cheat and hack the game.
04-20-2005, 11:30 AM
Ryan Clark Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2004Location:CanadaPosts: 186
I was about to mention the cheating angle, but dima beat me to it.
Another thing to consider is development cost. If you have thefunds to develop a MMORPG, the hosting costs would likely seem insignificant. Especially if you design the server side forscalability. If your game isn't popular you'd only be paying forone server. If it is popular, the funds from player subscriptions would be sufficient to pay for additional servers.
Puzzle Pirates has proven that it can be done, at least to some degree.__________________Ryan ClarkGrubby Games
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Indiegamer Developer Discussion Boards - Peer to peer MMORPG? http://forums.indiegamer.com/showthread.php?t=2914
2 of 6 03/05/2005 14:44
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04-20-2005, 11:44 AM
cliffski Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2004Posts: 557
cheating is only a problem because so many MMORPGS are obsessed with 'levelling up' This puts some people off. these games are pure grind/treadmill.Nowhere is it written that MMORPGS == Levelling up + Grind. How about one that had NO levels at all? these games should be about interaction and roleplay, no amassing points.__________________Positech Games
04-20-2005, 12:07 PM
Dan MacDonald Administrator
Join Date: Jul 2004Posts: 679
A few years ago I spent a lot of effort trying to come up with a secure p2p networking model for an MMO type game. It's certainly possible to split up the game state into regions and process chunks of the game state on the clients computers. However no matter how I approached it, and how I tried to conceive of ways to secure it, I just wasn't able to come up with a reliable way. For the simple reason that when the game state is distributed you are not in control of it, even if you set up servers to sort of validate the game state, if a group of people (who's clients are checked against each other) all decide to fake out the server there's nothing the server can do about it because they own and operate the game state. At it's core the p2p system is just insecure.
Sure you can make it fairly difficult to compromise, but the more successful your game is the more incentive people have to hack it. The problem with persistent worlds is once they are compromised it is very difficult to un-compromise them without a wipe or some other traumatic event. Very often the effects are allowed to persist which also increases the incentive to hack. (Gold in UO?).
Client server is secure because the server runs the whole simulation, it can choose to trust the client for absolutely no information. The clients can just send requests that the server processes and sends back a response for. This isn't always the most efficient way to go. I think a better problem to try and solve is making a client server model that scales linearly.
If you have a server on your cable modem that runs 60 players and pays for itself, then it would be nice if you could grow it to 2 servers with 120 players that pay for themselves. Unfortunatelywhat tends to happen as the population grows is that the problem increases in complexity and it actually takes 2.5 servers to support 120 players. So you get diminishing returns on a growing population. If you could create a self sustaining client/server system that scales linearly then you would have a very viable and secure model that would be both profitable and insure profitability in the future (as the game grows).__________________Dan MacDonald
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3 of 6 03/05/2005 14:44
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04-20-2005, 12:20 PM
dima Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2005Posts: 260
Quote:
Originally Posted by cliffskicheating is only a problem because so many MMORPGS are obsessed with 'levelling up' This puts some people off. these games are pure grind/treadmill.Nowhere is it written that MMORPGS == Levelling up + Grind. How about one that had NO levels at all? these games should be about interaction and roleplay, no amassing points.
Cheating has nothing to do with leveling up actually. You cancheat in many ways like getting items or progressing to different locations that you arent supposed to see yet, anything basically.If your game has any type of competition or interaction, it can be cheated and hacked. And if your game has nothing that cheatingwould acomplish, then it's dull and has no gameplay.
Last edited by dima : 04-20-2005 at 01:11 PM.
04-21-2005, 04:07 AM
puggy Junior Member
Join Date: Mar 2005Posts: 9
hosting costs are nothing. I run starpeace2.com and i use a server from servermatrix.com. It cost $99 per month, for a game that costs $10 per month that means you need 10 subscribers. Each server can host 1 world in the game, i have about 50 subscribers and i am using only using about 5% of the bandwidth useage. Most of this bandwidth is used up in the html parts of the game. Each world can have about 2-3 k players, but this figure really depends on the size of the world (more buildings means more processing power needed), the number of people online (people changing information in there company uses cpu time), the time of year ingame (jan 1st is always a bad time, it's when tax's are calculated) and cpu power itself.
Currently i'm using a cel 2.6 but for $50 per month more i could get a very powerful cpu if required. Even if most of the client was done peer to peer, you still need a way for players to log on, find out where other players are and get certain info, download the game and of course your forums, which are a must.
If your just developing the game, to save money you could host the game world on your own internet connection, but this will cause lag and restrict your own web browsing.__________________Starpeace mpog - www.starpeace2.com
04-21-2005, 05:47 AM
Sharkbait
Indiegamer Developer Discussion Boards - Peer to peer MMORPG? http://forums.indiegamer.com/showthread.php?t=2914
4 of 6 03/05/2005 14:44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dimaYou can cheat in many ways like getting items or progressing to different locations that you arent supposed to see yet, anything basically. If your game has any type of competition or interaction, it can be cheated and hacked. And if your game has nothing that cheating would acomplish, then it's dull and has no gameplay.
I beg to differ in the case of a Client/Server approach. In Client/Server, the Server controls the rules, the physics etc. and updates the game and player states. The client on the other hand is only responsible for sending the player's responses and for rendering the game world from the point of view of the player. Thus the player has practically no possiblity to cheat - the only exceptions are things like graphics settings that might allow the player to say, remove foliage and spot hidden enemies.. but that's mostly an issue with FPS hunter / hunted games. Still, it is something that can be controlled if needed by delegating visibility processing to the server.
I've had a look at the Solipsis protocol, and it is definitely a smarter approach than the traditional P2P brute force approach of each peer notifying every other peer. However, I'm still skeptical about the system.. as it might take several network interactions for one peer to get a complete picture.. and most of the time it will be inconsistent. Anyway, it might just work out for a less action oriented MMO, and higher bandwidth rates in the future may yet make it a feasible approach. Still, I think the issue of security remains to be tackled - it is harder to cheat than traditional P2P because of the neighbouring peers, but it is still quite possible.__________________Sharkbait Gameswww.sharkbaitgames.com
04-21-2005, 07:03 AM
dima Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2005Posts: 260
Quote:
Originally Posted by SharkbaitI beg to differ in the case of a Client/Server approach.
I was talking about the P2P system and was trying to point out that leveling up isn't the only thing that tries to get cheated.
04-21-2005, 07:26 AM
Sharkbait Junior Member
Join Date: Apr 2005Posts: 19
Oh.. I thought you were implying that both C/S and P2P can be cheated in the same way.. my bad
Indiegamer Developer Discussion Boards - Peer to peer MMORPG? http://forums.indiegamer.com/showthread.php?t=2914
5 of 6 03/05/2005 14:44
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Of course.. with P2P you could do all sorts of things.. go through walls, warping from one point to another, notify peers you just killed them (protocol permitting).. pretty much anything.__________________Sharkbait Gameswww.sharkbaitgames.com
04-21-2005, 08:07 AM
cliffski Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2004Posts: 557
Quote:
Originally Posted by dimaIf your game has any type of competition or interaction,it can be cheated and hacked. And if your game hasnothing that cheating would acomplish, then it's dull and has no gameplay.
like the Sims you mean?Not all games are about scoring points or collecting stuff. In fact thats what pust a lot of people off. Theres always some 12 year old geek with mroe time on his hands who will have more gold pieces/credits than you.__________________Positech Games
04-21-2005, 08:12 AM
dima Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2005Posts: 260
I havent played the Sims online. Are you saying cheating wouldnot accomplish anything in that game?
And o yeah, there's nothing better than leveling up and collecting items, then hacking mosnters. Long Live Diablo!
04-21-2005, 10:22 AM
Hamumu Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2004Location:Temecula, CA, USAPosts: 283
People cheated their asses off in the Sims Online (and even moreso in offline)! Of course, it also was a game all aboutleveling up/collecting...
But anyway, take a game like UT or Quake - people go nuts trying to cheat there, even in the days before there were permanent stats kept. If there is something to desire (includingimmediate victory), people will cheat if they can. If there isnothing to desire, there is no reason to play.__________________
Mike Hommel Hamumu Software
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The program consists in two distinct sub-modules: the Solipsis Node is responsible of the maintaining of the virtual world structure, while the Navigator allows the user to "drive" theirs nodes around Solipsis world and chat or interact with other people in the world.
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Bruce points Smartmobs to Solipsis: A peer-to-peer system for a massively multi-participant virtual world.
"Solipsis runs under the GNU Lesser General Public License, is in effect a vacuum, empty of all life. No pre-existing cities. No people. No scenarios.
In the Solipsis virtual world, you can have a local view only: no one can have a global view. It will, for example, be impossible to know exactly howmany people are in Solipsis. Objects and people (avatars) are the same. They run the same code. They are peers - nodes in a logical network that will spread all over the internet. That's the dream behind the solipsis project."
There is no server, it relies on end-users' machines. Solipsis is open-source. Everybody can enhance the protocols and the algorithms.
Solipsis is developed within France Télécom - R&D Division∞
NB : The name 'Solipsis' comes from Solipsism∞, a philosophical doctrinethat claims that reality only exists in one's mind.
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FRANSEN ONTWIKKELEN VIRTUELEPEER-TO-PEERWERELD
29 april 2005 - Twee Fransen experimenterenmet een virtuele peer-to-peerwereld waarin gebruikers bestanden kunnen delen, chatten, surfen, spelletjes spelen en meer. Het netwerk verbindt p2p met MMORPG (Massively Multiplayer Online RolePlaying Game) en zou zo groot kunnen worden als
het web, denken de makers.
Solipsis, zoals het netwerk heet, is nu nog vooral leeg. Maardat gaat veranderen, als het aan Joaquin Keller en Gwendal Simon ligt. Zij zien Solipsis uitgroeien tot een web-achtige cyberspace waarbinnen gebruikers kunnen communiceren en hun eigen plek bouwen. De bedenkers leggen een vergelijking met de MMORPG's waarbij duizenden mensen tegelijk online
Ondertiteling tv-programma's opinternetFirefox heeft 10 procentmarktaandeelRegistratieplicht voor alle BahreinsewebsitesToename p2p-gebruikDigitale telefonie Casema in zichtBush staat filtertechniek voor dvd'stoeNokia introduceert 4 GBmuziektelefoonRechtbank verbiedt alternatievestemwijzerSpam kost ons 116 miljoen euro perjaar
spelen in een virtuele omgeving. Het grote verschil is dat er geen centrale server is en dat de inhoud door gebruikers zelf gemaakt wordt. Het basisprogramma is open source, dus iedere ontwikkelaar kan bijdragen. In de toekomst moeten in Solipsis 3D-beelden en multimediastreams mogelijk worden.
De ontwikkeling van de gedeelde virtuele wereld wordtgesteund door de onderzoeksafdeling van France Telecom. Inspiratie kregen de Fransen door het concept van de Metaverse uit het science fiction boek Snow Crash van Neal Stephenson. De naam komt van een stroming uit de filosofie die stelt dat de realiteit een verzinsel is van de geest. "Ik weet niet of Solipsis het uiteindelijk gaat worden, maar ik weet zeker dat er in de nabije toekomst een systeem als het onze komt", aldus Joaquin Keller.
Philips.nl gebruiksvriendelijkstewebsiteGoogle test adverteren via RSSRealNetworks bevecht p2p met gratisstreaming muziekMicrosoft's Metro gaat concurrentieaan met PDFNetscape-oprichters beginnen dienstvoor p2p-gridMicrosoft demonstreert onderdelenLonghorn
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1. Fransen ontwikkelen virtuele peer-to-peerwereld vrijdag 29 april 2005
Twee Fransen experimenteren met een virtuele peer-to-peerwereld waarin gebestanden kunnen delen, chatten, surfen, spelletjes spelen en meer. Het netwverbindt p2p met MMORPG (Massively Multiplayer Online RolePlaying Game) egroot kunnen worden als het web, denken de makers. De naam komt van eenuit de filosofie die stelt dat de realiteit een verzinsel is van de geest. ....score is: 100%
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FreeBeer.it » Blog Archive » Sharing Virtual Reality http://www.freebeer.it/?p=23
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FreeBeer.itNever More Without Beer
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Sharing Virtual Reality
Solipsis is a pure peer-to-peer system for a massively shared virtual world. There is no server at all: it only relies on end-users’ machines.
This entry was posted on Sunday, May 1st, 2005 at 11:20 am and is filed under Computer. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. You canleave a response, or trackback from your own site.
Register | Login | RSSP2P & Open Source & Gaming Published Apr 28 2005, 10:06 pm (by Reuben)
Solipsis: P2P Meets MMORPG
Very interesting. If this is done well, it’s potentially a paradigm shifting synthesis of technology. (With demographically targetted vertical integration!And little bells around its ankles!)
“Looks really interesting,” we replied in response to an email we’d had from Joaquin Keller in France. And it was interesting indeed becauseKeller was telling us about the release of Solipsis-0.8, a p2p MMORPG with truly astounding dimensions for a, “massively shared virtualworld,” as Keller and his co-developers say in their Solipsis site. “There is no server at all: it only relies on end-users’ machines.”…
At the moment, however, Solipsis, open source and running under under the GNU Lesser General Public License, is in effect a vacuum, empty of all life.
No pre-existing cities. No people. No scenarios.
Link
Some people will find it wierd to imagine a world without God. In the Solipsis virtual world, you can have a local view only: no one canhave a global view. It will, for example, be impossible to know exactly how many people are in Solipsis. “Objects” and people (avatars) arethe same. They run the same code. They’re peers - nodes in a logical network that will spread all over the internet.
That’s the dream behind the solipsis project.
Link
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Flavor 8 is a weblog maintained by Reuben Firmin
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Post Date :Thursday, Apr 28th, 2005 at 10:06 pmSection(s) :P2P & Open Source & GamingDo More :
FUTURE PLANS Continued full time development of Scream with an initial beta release planned for approximate2004.
S O L I P S I S - A P E E R - T O - P E E R S Y S T E M F O R A M A S S I V E L YM U L T I - P A R T I C I P A N T V I R T U A L W O R L D
PRESENTERS Joaquin Keller, Gwendal Simon
HISTORY In the beginning was the Metaverse (in Snow Crash by Neal Stephenson) and Gnutella 0.4. Thryears ago, at the dawn of peer-to-peer systems, the idea of building a serverless shared virtualemerged...
France Telecom is indeed a good company for this kind of projects: France Telecom do not oper(almost) any servers, it instead operates networks, and peer networks are networks, aren't the
DEMO run the software and have a live chat with internet users and/or the Codecon attendees(depending on the local network config).
1.
While so, present the Solipsis architecture and algorithms.2.And to get feedback and support, we will present also how we envision = the future of S(open source, standardization, colonization,...).
3.
ACHIEVEMENTS the first shared virtual reality with no server at all
FUTURE PLANS Short term: to make available an easy to install, .exe, installer (hopefully before codecon'2004)Less short term: to release, in a bazaar open source mode, a Solipsis beta version that could bereference implementation for standardization at IETF (or so).
T O R - S E C O N D - G E N E R A T I O N O N I O N R O U T I N G : AT C P - B A S E D A N O N Y M I Z I N G O V E R L A Y N E T W O R K
PRESENTERS Roger Dingledine
HISTORY First-generation Onion Routing started in 1996, and culminated in an unreleased and inflexibleprototype. Tor, the second-generation design, has been funded by the Naval Research Lab sinc2002, and is intended as an update and replacement for Onion Routing. It addresses many limiin the original Onion Routing design, and is released unencumbered as free software.
DEMO I'll give an overview of the Tor architecture, and talk about what security it provides and how uapplications interface to it. I'll show a working Tor network, and invite the audience to connect and use it.
ACHIEVEMENTS Code is usable, stable enough, portable, and small (~11k lines of C)Code is released unencumbered as free softwareWe've written a clear byte-level specification and design paper
CLAIM TO FAME Freely available unpatented Onion Routing code has been a cypherpunk goal for more than a de
FUTURE PLANS Location-hidden servers via rendezvous pointsRestricted-route (non-clique) network topologyThreshold agreement between directory serversWidely deployed testbed network
V E S T A - A N A D V A N C E D S O F T W A R E C O N F I G U R A T I O NM A N A G E M E N T S Y S T E M T H A T H A N D L E S B O T H V E R S I O N I NS O U R C E F I L E S A N D B U I L D I N G .
PRESENTERS Kenneth C. Schalk
HISTORY Vesta is the result of over 10 years of research and development at the Digital/Compaq SystemResearch Center in Plao Alto, CA. It's been in production use by a microprocessor design group(formerly the Alpha development group, now a part of Intel) for over 5 years. It was released a
Blogs of War » Solipsis: An Infinitely Scalable Virtual World http://www.blogsofwar.com/archives/2005/04/30/solipsis-an-infinitely...
1 of 6 03/05/2005 13:08
Saturday, April 30th, 2005Solipsis: An Infinitely Scalable Virtual WorldPosted by John Little
Joaquin Keller’s Solipsis project will create evolving and infinitely scalable virtual worlds free of the limiting client-server architecture currently used by MMORPGS. If it works, and that might be a big if, the implications could be staggering.
Related:Wikipedia - MetaverseWikipedia - MMORPG
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Current Topic: Technology View Timeframes
Solipsis: A peer-to-peer system for amassively multi-participant virtual world] Solipsis is a pure peer-to-peer system for a massively ] shared virtual world. There is no server at all: it only ] relies on end-users' machines. ] ] The shared virtual worlds of nowadays MMORPG strongly ] rely on privately owned servers. These servers are an ] expensive bottleneck that limits their scalability. In ] addition, these servers bound the freedom of the virtual ] world inhabitants and the imagination of the ] world-builders and developers. Solipsis solves these ] problems with a free and open-source system. ] ] Solipsis is a public virtual territory. The world is ] initially empty and only users will fill it by creating ] and running entities. No pre-existing cities, habitants ] nor scenario to respect... ] ] Solipsis is open-source, so everybody can enhance the ] protocols and the algorithms. Moreover, the system ] architecture clearly separates the different tasks, so ] that peer-to-peer hackers as well as multimedia geeks can ] find here a good place to have fun ! ] ] The best approximation of what could be Solipsis in a ] near future may be Neal Stephenson's Metaverse.
Interesting.
Development is being lead by France Telecom's R&D division.
Solipsis: A peer-to-peer system for a massivelymulti-participant virtual world
Thread [2] - Reply - Link from Rattle.
No training wheels needed - New trikebike takes fear out of first solo rideThree Purdue University industrial designers who tapped intomemories of their own childhood cycling misadventures have built a bike that ditches the training wheels but keeps rookies stable.
Called SHIFT, it slowly transforms from a tricycle to bicycle configuration as the rider pedals faster, then returns to trike formation as the rider slows down.
COOL! -LB
No training wheels needed - New trike bike takes fear out of
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common tagsp2pgamesmmorpgsoftwarenetworksolipsisgamemmogdesignmetaversevirtualvirtualworldspythoncyberpunkgamingwikinetworkssocialworld
login | register | about | populardel.icio.us / urlSolipsis: A peer-to-peer system for a massively multi-participant virtualworld
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Submitted by Jason Craft on 27 April, 2005 - 12:15pm.
This is incredibly cool.
Solipsis: A peer-to-peer system for a massively multi-participant virtual world - [del.icio.us]
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Wandel’s Blog http://blog.wandel.se/
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Wandel’s Blog
[Lots of diffrent things]May 1st, 2005 at 14:27 by Wandel
Hey, I can’t comment!I disabled commenting for people who aren’t registered, and I’m the only one(well, Timmy can too) whocan register you. I did this because of all the spam comments I was getting. So If you want to be able tocomment, you’ll have to contact me, or Timmy.
Bush has signed the Hollywood’s Family Entertainment and Copyright ActI’ve written about this earlier. So, Americans really are stupid. Well, at least some of them.
P2p meets MMORPGYou can read about it here or at the official site.Apparently it’s an MMORPG that uses peer-to-peer technology.I’m downloading it at the moment to see if it’s any good. Will be back with an update on that.
Posted in Uncategorized | No Comments »
The greatest browser in the world hits 50 million downloadsMay 1st, 2005 at 14:00 by Wandel
Yesterday, 29th of May, at 16:01 GMT Mozilla’s webbrowser was downloaded for the 50 000 000thtime.In case you’re not one of those, I command you to immediately Get Firefox.
I wish Mozilla good luck, and another 50 million downloads.
Posted in Uncategorized | No Comments »
Are they stupid?April 23rd, 2005 at 10:56 by Wandel
I just read this. Apparently George W. Bush is soon going to sign The Hollywood inspired Family Entertainment and Copyright Act of 2004. This will give the entertainment industry cartels the power to jail people for up to three years, for people who are caught recording a movie in a theater with a camcorder, and six years for second offense.
For comparison, these are some of the things that will put you in jail for 27 months(that’s two years andthree months, in case you’re wondering) or less in Washington: Arson, Manslaughter, Burglary in theFirst Degree, Child Molestation in the Second Degree, dealing in child pornography, Drive-by Shooting, Third Degree Rape of a Child, Second Degree Kidnapping, Third Degree Rape and Sexually Violating Human Remains.
And I’ve heard people saying copyright laws aren’t fucked up…
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Solipsis: P2P Virtual WorldsPreliminary work on Solipsis, a system for building and navigating a virtual worldhosted in a distributed fashion. The PDF of the protocols is a curious mix of math and poetry
If an entity does not know any entity in some large sector, it will hardlyknow about an entity arriving from this sector. Conversely, if it movesforward a sector with no known entity, it will hardly get aware of entities itshould met on its path. The Global Connectivity property aims that an entitywill not “turn its back” to a portion of the world.
There's very little fleshed out here, so I can't recommend it so much as point to it, but I remember Tim Sweeney of the game Unreal talking about something like this back when years had 1's in them, so it may have percolated long enough to be the right time for it.
Posted by Clay at 4:42 PM
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Note that a very usuable version of Solipsis will be released as soon as today (1/28/04).Stay tuned !
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snarfed.org draw group stream of consciousness
I went to CodeCon 2004, and I had a blast. It was a great time. I've posted a short description and a photo album. I'm also posting my rough, incomplete, unedited notes on a few of the projects presented on Saturday and Sunday.
goal is to make "nfs done better" (since nfs is stateless, insecure, bad track record, bad failure model)
fully disconnected operation (w/very very aggressive, long-lived caching)
doesn't try to break new ground w/security, but aims to be "as good as necessary" - supports SSL, PAM backend, etc.
*userspace implementation*!!! (easier debugging, packaging, porting, libraries, etc.) however, hard to believe this will have the same availability, performance, robustness as a kernel filesystem.
make use of other projects: wvstreams (open.nit.ca) for network comm, FUSE (avf.sf.net) as a kernel module that
moreover, there were lots of somewhat amusing questions from the crowd about the commercial nature of the product - it costs money, even for end users, it's closed-source, etc. pretty standard normally, but definitely unusual in this crowd. not wholly unwelcome, but maybe a little. :P
SCREAM http://audio.egregious.net/scream/
so, the first impression we got from this talk wasn't the talk at all, but the demo setup. the lead (who spoke) was in the dj booth, the entire dance floor was cleared out of chairs, and there were 8 huge speakers in an array. after the talk, he ran a demo of 3d positional audio, w/him directing it *in realtime*. all of the attendees stood in the middle of the dance floors and got our collective ear drums blown out. it was great. :P
real-time java audio sequencer/mixer/sampler/synthesizer spatializer, built on SuperCollider 3. *entirely* synthesized in real-time, can run w/o prerecorded samples at all!
pluggable modules include:
GranuSampler: granular synthesis, allows mixing and matching samples at
different speeds and fine-grained envelopes
Ambisonic Spatialization: first-order unit generator from SuperCollider, does
full 3d spatialization of sound, output to 5.1, 6.1, dolby, headphones, etc.
AmbiGranusampler, combination
server-client w/thin client and bandwidth-constrained protocol design.
demoed at burning man on an 8-point speaker system, thousands of watts, 12 ft. tall speaker stacks. (!)
high-performance UI, in the tradition of pro audio eq't, based solely on Java2D.
next, planning to use this as part of a multimedia distribution platform w/java.
also, want to try to use this to create open-source audio tools for film, music, etc. post-production (e.g. positional audio special fx as well as video special fx.)
Solipsis http://solipsis.netofpeers.com/
purely distributed, scalable framework for virtual world w/avatars. inspired by mmorpgs, but also metaverse (from
w/avatars. inspired by mmorpgs, but also metaverse (from neal stephenson's snow crash), etc. built by france telecom (!).
terms: each peer is a node, an avatar is a node w/a human driving it, a virtual object is a node without a human.
the net structure and routing use measurements based on "known", "visible", and "near" nodes. these are calculated from visibility, history, distance, etc. principle is "if i can see everyone, and they can see me, then for all intents and purposes, i'm there."
collaboration: when pre-existing entities see that a new entity joins in, they help announce that entity's info (basically assisted flood-fill). connections are *loose* w.r.t visibility.
the network structure, routing, connectivity are organized like a 2D BSP tree.
each node has its own connxn BSP tree
the correlations (edges) are the net connxns
the BSP tree is *dynamic* - changes when other nodes enter/leave/move, etc.
the "Global Connection Property" is basically a formalization of when the routing table for a node has converged. they've canonicalized it so that when a node joins or leaves, neighbors can help fill in the gaps in your routing tables to speed up convergence.
"moving" in this virtual world is nontrivial. basically, you have a target, and a msmt of where they are in the network. you can also measure distance as # hops. to get there, you pick a random hop that's "toward" them (or not away from them) and keep going until you hit a node you've already seen. then you've "surrounded" the target, ie you've seen all its neighbors, so you're there.
architecture:
nodes talk to each other w/UDP - stateless, short-lived connxns to maintain
ad-hoc network and routing tables.
avatars talk w/"navigators", which use nodes to find navigators, then talk
directly to the other navigators over XML-RPC, CORBA, etc. (stateful).
navigators can do HTTP/proxy traversal
the navigator has a pluggable platform that allows people to develop their
own services (e.g. chat, gambling, trading, etc.) on top of solipsis
demo was fun - we all logged onto solipsis and bounced around! it was a little temperamental, but it did work. the presenters were really excited - he said it was the largest load test he'd ever done. he was grinning from ear to ear, wihch was pretty cool.
sophisticated, fully-functional wiki written in php and mysql. fork of WikkiTikkiTavi, extended by NetIntegration Technologies
demo had a few glitches w/permissions, but did show that gracefultavi could be installed, configured, and run (from scratch) within ~5 minutes.
very conservative parsing - converts text to HTML w/regexps. parsed line by line w/temporary tokens, which has lots of benefits and only one downside (line breaks).
wiki linking - WikiLinkWordsLikeThis (capitalized words) are automatically linked to the page w/that name. urls are automatically linkified, and there's a syntax to put alternate labels on urls.
multiple regexps for parsing (as opposed to most wikis which use a single regexp). multiple regexps increases flexibility, power, *and* security vs. XSS.
also provides wiki syntax for creating tables and other basic html features.
advanced features:
page hierarchy and tree relations
diff functionality (basic version control, but no history per se)
search that matches from most to least restrictive, w/advanced syntax
pluggable macro framework. macros are written in php, however, and must be
run on the server, so it's not clear how this is better than just hacking the source.
future plans are annotation, groups, permissions, etc.
frankly, wiki systems are a dime a dozen. this one seems nice, and has a few cool features (esp. diffs and macros), but i'm not sure whether it has enough to differentiate itself from the masses.
CodeCon audio upCodeCon 2004 audio archive torrent (300 MB) is up. I listened to the first two during Gunbound last night, so I'm only up to Solipsis yet, but these are the cool sounding ones:
Codeville, Bram and Ross Cohen's distributed code versioning systemPGP Universal, “Automatic, Transparent Email Encryption with Zero Clicks”(it's a proxy device you hook in line with your gateway, automatically signsthings and manages keys)Solipsis, France Telecom's P2P MMOVW platformGracefulTavi, “advanced” wiki softwareAudacity, already the answer to “know a good free audio editing program?”Mosuki, “Artificial Networks Naturally”—not sure what this is
But as you have to download all of them in the torrent, I may listen to a few others at random.
